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Old 03-22-2018, 04:01 PM   #1
kipps
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2010 dash swap

Have a complete 2010 tahoe donor. 5.3 going into a squarebody.

Considering moving the gauges over to the square, but not sure if it's even possible.

If I understand correctly, the PCM sends data to the BCM, and the BCM outputs to the stepper motors in the instrument cluster. Is there a way to eliminate the BCM, or limit its function to just converting data from the PCM?

Any threads or suggestions are welcome!
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:48 PM   #2
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Re: 2010 dash swap

hello kipps. if it were me trying to accomplish this fete i would use the bcm. it would be easier to integrate them all into your LSx swap. the bcm is the communicator. if you do try this, post your project on the thread.
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:35 PM   #3
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Re: 2010 dash swap

If you do not have access to GM service information, you will have a big surprise. The BCM is also the power mode master. These signal are inputs from a mutil-plex ignition switch and if not correct, things don't work right. Yes, class2 data from the PCM is part going to the IPC with engine data, but a different class2 goes into the BCM. The BCM will not turn on a MIL or check engine light, but would turn on vehicle service soon. It is required to operate the dash using class2 data and GM uses there own circuit design and chip's to read, de-code and direct traffic on the bus. I am doing something similar but using the drivers door module, passengers door module to also get RKE, and the BCM for content theft as VATS is deleted during an LS swap. Using a monetary switch, in place of the "Flash to pass" feature on the turn signal lever (Multi-function-Sw.), will allow me to change personalization for door lock operation, external light flashing, plus horn or no horn when locking or in-locking, plus driving to 8 mph, doors lock, etc. The ignition switch provide the BCM with 5 power modes that allows is to wake up modules, using the VIN, followed by the address for the module, then the message or command. It could be done, but it will take hours of planning. I taught this for ACDelco in class and 4 hour tech seminars across the mid-west for a decade. Retired now.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kipps View Post
Have a complete 2010 tahoe donor. 5.3 going into a squarebody.

Considering moving the gauges over to the square, but not sure if it's even possible.

If I understand correctly, the PCM sends data to the BCM, and the BCM outputs to the stepper motors in the instrument cluster. Is there a way to eliminate the BCM, or limit its function to just converting data from the PCM?

Any threads or suggestions are welcome!

The easiest way is to put Tahoe's complete instrument cluster and just pug and play. Need to modify the dashboard of course.
the most expensive way to send the cluster to Dakota instrument and they will custom built one that is plug/play. Cost about $1000.
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Old 03-31-2018, 04:03 PM   #5
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Re: 2010 dash swap

LH-Leadfoot, so a careful reading of your post indicates the PCM does send data directly to the cluster. Is this basically a one-wire hookup, like it seems like it should be?

What "wakes up" the cluster? An ignition 12v? The PCM? The BCM? If it's the BCM, I might be screwed.

You indicate that the BCM also sends data to the cluster. I'm thinking that I don't want any of that data. I'm not using keyless entry, power locks, mirrors, radio, AC, etc, etc. Can I simply leave the BCM out of the equation altogether? All I want is to connect the cluster to the PCM and get the basic gauges functioning(odometer, speedo, tach, oil, temp, fuel, volts). A few other cluster functions would be nice, but not critical.

I cannot find a pinout diagram anywhere for the cluster. Any ideas? I have not demolished the dash in the donor yet, so I could still reverse-engineer the harness.

I'm aware that using the new cluster would necessitate using the fuel pump module and the fuel system control module to send proper fuel level data to the PCM.
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Old 03-31-2018, 05:03 PM   #6
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Re: 2010 dash swap

Theres not going to be any way to hard wire the gauges in that cluster, its all sent on the CAN BUS, so unless you're really dedicated to doing this, it just isnt going to be worth the hassle. It can be done but its a LOT of wiring, and will require the BCM. ...
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Old 03-31-2018, 05:35 PM   #7
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Re: 2010 dash swap

why not just use your stock dash.?..
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:07 PM   #8
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Re: 2010 dash swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongocanfly View Post
why not just use your stock dash.?..
Where's the fun in that? Why not just use the stock 350 tbi?

Also, the stock dash doesn't have a tach.

Isn't the whole point of this forum to have as modern of a truck as possible without spending money?

Seriously, if using the 2010 dash will require $500 worth of special black boxes, I won't do it. But if with a little elbow grease and head scratchin', I can pull the entire fuel pump system and dash over from the donor for cheaper than aftermarket bits, why not?
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Old 04-01-2018, 02:09 PM   #9
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Re: 2010 dash swap

Kipps, I only have GM electronic service information up to 2004. Your 2010 operates the same way as an 04 Tahoe with a few exceptions. The PCM gets a high resolution MPH signal from the VSS. Many refer to it as 128k. it's is a metal tone ring on the output shaft and uses a PMG two wire signal into the PCM. The PCM converts the signal into a 4k for the IPC to read MPH. Also, a class 2 serial data signal is shared with the ICP to confirm actual MPH. The BCM sends info to the IPC to wake up, followed by the "VIN" and a state of health signal every two seconds.

CAN or GMLAN, is used on cars starting on 04 with the Vette. TCM, BCM, PCM, and Suspension on high end models. Truck / Vans / SUV's fall into a different class according to the DOT.

The 2010 ignition switch is a multiplex switch, meaning it produces B+ for;
ACC, RUN, Start
RUN, START
START
RUN
KEY-In
OFF
UNLOCK
The BCM has to be used to operate the IPC as it requires the VIN to work. It is not plug-n-play. Under warranty or not, if it is sent in for repair, they need the mileage & VIN. There are servo motors for each gauge and lights that be serviced at home, but most other failures require a service center.

My understanding of "GM Square-Body" truck means 1973-1987. There are a dozen forums that cover this range of classic truck. As a dealer tech, I was not swap or mixing parts to work with others. I had to go with year, make, model and VIN.
It can be done, but your 2010 IPC will need a BCM on the network to function via class 2, circuit #1036 GRY. The PCM from your donor, sends a ground for MIL on circuit # 419, BRN/WHT. PCM also sends dedicated PCM class 2 to IPC on circuit # 1049 BRN/WHT, with general class 2 on circuit # 710 YEL to all including the BCM.
Remember, your fuel info, PCM to IPC is on circuit # 1036 GRY with a sender of 40 ohms empty - 250 ohms full.

Vehicle speed and fuel would be your main issue. If you have a 4L60e, 700r4, TH350 or TH400, the tone ring is sintered iron with 40 teeth. It should be heated up for a friction fit on the output shaft (ACDelco 24202711 $7 Amazon) with a VSS (ACDelco 24202711 $28 Amazon) for a 2 wire, high resolution input into the PCM. It can be done, but you can perhaps find a dealer, slip a tech $10 spot, have them print out your ICP, BCM and PCM if needed. Maybe the other forums have published schematics to help.

Why a "High Resolution" VSS? Many truck/Utilities do not have ABS sensors on the rear. So, instead of a 4 channel system, they use a 3 channel. The PCM passes the rear high res. signal to the ABS module. Yours may very!

For VSS, enough money can get you a GPS output box with 4k per mile. Note; Dakota Digital says "Not to be used for ABS input".

The BCM wakes up modules but also monitors others on the network for mode, commands and state-of-health. It also controls "Load Shedding" for modules to shut off, much less turn on. If a working system is running, with the correct VATs signal and Power Mode, if class2 is lost, the BCM or PCM, will run in "Back-Up-Mode" and flag the module that failed. It turn the "Service Vehicle Lamp", not the MIL/CEL. The engine will start and run without a valid VATS signal, if serial data was lost when working. It keeps the driver from having to enter "Tennis Shoe Mode".

The PCM is very busy checking each sensor required to run the engine and EVAP, via each circuit using a simple voltage drop, resistance test or valid signal once started. It takes up to 4 minutes to test all from a cold start. It's part of OBD-II since 1994. This is where Re-programming comes in & 20 plus questions to delete many functions and add cooling fans where HVAC drivers hide.

I did everything from the PCM, BCM, Door modules (In center console) so I can take advantage of RKE, Content Theft, Lock-out prevention and even warnings, like key-in (Had to fabricate that / and doors also), head lamps with on-key out and door open, and even turn signal left on down the Hi-Way will cause a chime reminder. I am using a module interface ($30) form eBay, type in,(PAC ICGM24C) which plugs in where the radio used to be, with power, ground, serial data and has it's own speaker w/tone generator built in. Otherwise, that tone comes out of the OEM radio and left front speaker via class2 signal.

I know this is going to be a hard one to wrap your head around. But the project could be done. Depends on your time, resources & wiring skills.

I created a 5 signal ignition switch from a 71 with ACC, using diodes in 4 arrangements to operate low current coil control circuits for relays to get my power modes. I have low current going thru my ignition switch and let ground control all relay coils to produce and control my signals.

Best of luck. Happy Easter.
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Old 11-11-2019, 08:44 PM   #10
kipps
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Re: 2010 dash swap

LH-Leadfoot, since reading up some more on this, I've got a few more questions.

I'm starting with a 2010 LMG engine. I am deleting the AFM, which results in a LMF engine. No 4th gen vortec engine was offered with a manual transmission, that I can tell. I intended to simply bolt up a manual, and delete everything related to the automatic, but I changed my mind.

It appears that using an actual Camaro SS ls3 tune will be much better, because I can run a clutch switch, can guarantee the speed sensor will work, and won't be needing to see "drive" from the TCM for cruise control to work.

My intention now, is to purchase a junkyard BCM from a Camaro SS ls3, and get the VIN from the same vehicle. My brother is a GM tech, and using the provided Camaro VIN, can flash a Camaro tune onto my LMG e38 ECM. This should give me a matching Camaro ECM and BCM.

After this, I'll go back into the ECM with HPtuners, and repopulate all the tables with my LMG(LMF) engine data. This should give me the closest thing to a factory vortec engine with a manual transmission.

Now for the questions. The only purpose I intend for the BCM, is smart charging and cruise control. What is the minimum required to use the BCM in this situation? Can I simply pin battery voltage, ignition voltage, ground, and GMLAN to the BCM, and it will boot up and play nice with the ECM? Then hook up just the wires needed for the cruise switches and the smart charging current sensor, and it will handle those tasks correctly?

Or will "VATS" need to be disabled in the BCM, or in someway trick the BCM into thinking the correct startup sequence is being followed?

It appears you've studied this a bit more in depth than I have, so I'd appreciate your input.
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:14 PM   #11
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Re: 2010 dash swap

Kipps; The 2010 Camero is outside my ability to see the charging system strategy and general wiring.
Have a buddy to reprogram the BCM at the dealer is the only way to have this done. As the name implies, the Body Control Module controls all things body. So door locks, seat belt warning (Chime thru radio) turn signals (Faster chime thru radio after 1/4 mile of turns signal on) interior lights, exterior lights, keyless entry, retained accessory power, content theft, vehicle theft and other audible warnings.
With a door key in switch, key in ignition switch and door ajar switches, the BCM will see the key out, turn on retain accessory power (Relay grounded to provide power to radio, windows, etc.), then open the door, it shuts off retained accessory power. But if key is left in the ignition switch, but in the locked position or off, door opens and you manually lock the door, the BCM will chime reminding you; Hey, the key is inside dummy. If the lock is pressed and you close the door, the BCM will unlock the door, giving you a change to realize the mistake.
The PCM controls the rate of charging, not the BCM. The PCM will send a class 2 serial data message to the IPC to turn on a charge warning light.
Now, NOTE; this is only the 2002 model before the "F" body disappeared for some time. I will tell you that charging systems are subject to serious control, like power steering, to reduce the horse power taken away from the engine to increase the fuel economy. There are several generations. An amp clamp is placed on the positive cable and it communicates to the PCM that controls duty cycle. Then they went up-intergraded to communicate with the IPC. Then 3rd gen went to BCM. I have not info on the 2010 "F" body. Also, the amp clamp has been moved to the negative battery cable on many models as well.
Have your brother at the dealer access GM service Info, go to year, make, model, then find "Body and Accessories" to "Body Control System" to "Description and Operation", hit print. Wiring schematics for it are broken into the "Cells" operation but "Engine" to "Engine Electrical" to "Schematics and Routings" click on "Charging" to view which module is on control of charging.

Your tuner can remove VATS or place an 8k resistor between the correct two wires on the BCM and power it up, then do a "Re-Learn" for 10 minutes, then repeat 3 times. A hidden switch in series with this circuit will be a manual anti-theft device.

Yep. I have to do year specific research but working at the dealer, I already knew how a lot of these things worked. I am using only content theft on my build, but for 2003, keyless entry is using the passengers door module. It communicates to the BCM via class2 to unlock doors using OEM key fob and a rolling code system. Aftermarket radio or not, but on eBay, you can spend $30 and buy a module with a speaker the plugs into the OEM radio harness and generates the tones the BCM produces to warn you of things.
I am providing a "Flash" button to be able to change 6 different modes of RKE action. Visual, the lights flash... Audible, the horn honks, etc.
It is like memory modules that add personalization to you vehicle. It will change the seat position, radio station, exit lighting preference, delayed locking, lock out prevention, shock sensor enable, etc. Hell, the drivers #1 key fob, when programmed, can have the "Drivers Info Center" says "Hello Kipp", if it was used. I would like to remove the DIC and its EEPROM and serial data chip to place in custom location. How far does one want to go.

After a major swap like mine: I am creating a service manual with part numbers, schematics, locations, with color and photo reference in the back of the manual. This will ensure, that my son or any tech, can repair a problem in the future, long after I am gone...

It is definitely not your fathers Oldsmobile %X3#$& I mean his Camero!
Hope this helps... a little
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Old 11-12-2019, 08:26 PM   #12
kipps
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Re: 2010 dash swap

I've got an alldata subscription for the Tahoe. I don't have one for a Camaro, but I think that a lot of info should cross over.

I've just studied out my ignition switch and theft deterrent systems. The Ignition switch is receiving a 12v source from the fuse box, and a 5v source from the BCM. It outputs 12v, 5v, and another reduced voltage(internal resistor) to the BCM on three pins. The 12v signals go straight through and operate the run/crank relay, and appear to wake up the e38 ECM on pin x1-18. I'm guessing the BCM receives and passes on these signals so that it can have the ability to start the vehicle without the key switch.

The theft deterrent module was not showing up in alldata. Finally found it listed as "alarm module." This is ACDelco #22738087, and has four pins. These four are battery voltage, ignition voltage from the ignition switch, ground, and low speed GMLAN serial data. This last wire goes directly to the BCM.

Based on all of the above, I assume I cannot simply wire in a resistor anywhere to bypass VATS. Am I correct in this?

My Battery Current Sensor has three wires that run directly to the BCM. So in some way, my BCM is critical for smart charging.

If I fail at getting the BCM to work, how bad is it if I just allow the alternator to operate at the 13.8v? Will that charge "good enough"? Another alternative I've heard of is to purchase an alternator from a gen 3 engine.
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Old 11-13-2019, 02:27 PM   #13
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Re: 2010 dash swap

Your brother at the dealer is going to be the key to system operations. Class 2 serial data has been used since the 90's and is common for all modules. GM-LAN or CAN bus, was used for only PCM, BCM, Trans control module and suspension if equipped with ride control. The truck is wired differently from passenger cars, but you are simply putting a 2010 Tahoe modified engine into a WHAT? Sorry, I've lost track.

The battery sensor you have as you pointed out, goes into the PCM, great. As for 13.2 volts, this voltage changes with temperature. One module, perhaps the BCM, will have the ability to monitor the battery. The positive and ground it gets, plus class 2 info from the PCM will allow a TECH2 to see the batteries, CCA, State-of-Health, rate of charge...a huge amount of info.

Your tuner can delete VATS, but if the 2010 Tahoe, now transformed into a 2010 Camero PCM / BCM, you would have to find the theft system in GMeSI for the Camero. Generally, they will use RFID +, meaning outside the workings, it has an electronic hand-shake, then passes a 5 volt signal to the PCM to allow Fuel, Ignition and/or Cranking. I am just not up to date on the 2010 strategies for theft. The 2010 Camero would have a key with a "Circle" stamped on the keys shank, above the cuts, but with a + symbol in it. This is Passlock-3, a version of immobilizer that first correct signal means a challenge signal is sent. The keys RFID chip, responds with a rolling code 18 digit response. After all this is done, the module sends a regulated 5 volt signal to the PCM via a 22 ga. wire, tiny. The signal could be regulated 12 volts, but don't know until GMeSI system description is read. It would cost $5 or less to purchase or make a regulated 5 volt DC signal for theft by-pass.

Yes class 2 is common from BCM to others like; Drivers door module, Passengers door module, Radio, IPC and many other devices. If not on the network, the BCM will simply store a code, but won't turn on the "Check Engine" lamp because it would operate the "Check Vehicle" lamp which is not in the vehicle. Serial is helpful when working for diagnostics and modules. For example, the radio is RDS, so VSS signal makes it louder when going faster, but class 2 sends the radio "Chime" signals, a tone generator creates a noise thru the LF Speaker, while shutting off the others. Different rates of tones are used for different issues. So exit the vehicle with headlight on, the chime is faster as compared to turn signal on after 1/4 mile of driving while still on. Also, "ON-Star" uses the speakers for a microphone as well as a speaker and shuts the others off for hearing. Connect a BOSE amp under the console, class 2 tells the radio to drop down to pre-amp mode only. Un-hook it or loose signal, the radio gets loud.

GM-LAN or CAN, is used for "Real-Time" data sharing between module that require serious data. Low-Speed CAN or GM-LAN is slowly replacing certain older class 2 signal for modules that need a clean quick signal. Only your wiring diagram knows for sure. But class 2 serial data will be used on most modules for a long time, because it is common, low price, simple to diagnose with one wire, etc. 0 volts to 7 volts when active in cavity 2 of the DLC. So a DMM on DC Volts will show about 4.5 volts or half go the systems voltage. CAN uses two twisted wires, with a 120 ohms resistor at the ends in parallel, so measures 60 ohms when off.

I wish I had access to GMeSI to current, but would have to go to the dealer, find my Cadillac buddy and get on his terminal. Otherwise, I am stuck with up to 2004 only.

For remote keyless and the "Start" feature, requires the OEM key fob and most vehicles, used the passengers door module, then via class 2, the signal goes to the BCM, to PCM and software looks at a truth table.
No Current Tach Signal = Yes
RPM below 400 = yes
Transmission in park = yes
No certain codes set = yes
Doors locked = yes
No key in ignition = yes
Well, you get it. I sounds like you are on the right track, but will require some beer to get prints at dealership for schematic, key switch, BCM, PCM, etc.

Content theft is not understood as it is not designed to save the vehicle, but un-authorized access. Still, a simple relay will disable the PCM fuel and ignition circuits real easy, while light flash, horn honks bringing attention to the vehicle.

In 2003 for about 6 years, GM ran entire circuits thru the ignition switch and caused tons of failures, even with large copper contacts. All the had to do, was use a small switch to power up relays to provide the needed signals for stuff to operated, including "Power Mode Master" signals for the BCM. These signals are used for electrical load shedding when turning on, but more so when shutting off, exiting the vehicle, exterior light control, interior lights, RAP and "Engine-Off-Natural-Vacuum" for small EVAP leaks up to 20 minutes. One by one, each module is shut off, allowing for temporary information to be retained into long-term memory. It is like a re-boot to save certain memory of events, time before EVAP happens again (Roughly 6-8 hrs of drive time), etc. A lot going on.

With the trucks theft, they used a key cylinder with a magnet that rotated pass two hall-effect transistors. The voltage used was regulated from the BCM, then one of 10 resistors where placed into it. This generates the proper signal the BCM reads. So, my reference to 8k resistor work fine on my 2003 Tahoe BCM, sitting on the ground next to the engine and PCM, to allow it to sit and run as I cleaned the injectors, IR Gun on each exhaust port, then compression test, etc to make sure it was a good core to start with. Yes, I have a TECH2, and had it hooked up. I could "SEE" the re-learn for pass-lock, timer for 10 minutes, sequence and progress. If it would have been an 04, it would have remote start and software would allow for the TECH2 to re-learn the 8k resistor without waiting, just push a button.
The 2003, can have a resistor between two wires on the BCM to create a false input theft signal, faking the voltage drop from the pass-lock system, as the key just has to have the right cut, but the electronics is in the lock itself.

Hope this helps and answers you questions!
Blessings.
P.S. GMeSI is smart as it notes the uses login, IP Address, Time of Day, then requires password change often. They don't it passed around outside the dealer network.
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