Do I really need power brakes?

[KQQL IT]

You'll be fine with out the power brakes the right master cylinder.

[Smittee]

Originally Posted by 60apache

so are you happy with it or did you add the power to the brakes?

Unfortunately, I am still not back on the road! It could be awhile!

[davepl]

I would say IF you've had a vehicle with manual brakes before and know what you're getting into, ok... but I don't think you'll be happy with a very modern motor and very retro braking.

I can't tell if you've had this same truck and drove it as is, in which case you already know what you're getting into and should be fine.

If it were me, I'd want to add power discs up front. The LS motor makes a lot more power than the 307 or whatever you had before, and best to upgrade power and stopping at the same time, I figure.

[Robznob11]

Originally Posted by davepl

I would say IF you've had a vehicle with manual brakes before and know what you're getting into, ok... but I don't think you'll be happy with a very modern motor and very retro braking.

I can't tell if you've had this same truck and drove it as is, in which case you already know what you're getting into and should be fine.

If it were me, I'd want to add power discs up front. The LS motor makes a lot more power than the 307 or whatever you had before, and best to upgrade power and stopping at the same time, I figure.

Remember it depends on the type of manual brakes too. I'm pushing 425whp and my manual breaks stop my ls hot rod fine.

[muley]

Originally Posted by Robznob11

Remember it depends on the type of manual brakes too. I'm pushing 425whp and my manual breaks stop my ls hot rod fine.

Rob, I have manual drums on my C20. No complaints, just confused on the "type" you are referring to. If I can improve, I will.

[Robznob11]

Originally Posted by muley

Rob, I have manual drums on my C20. No complaints, just confused on the "type" you are referring to. If I can improve, I will.

I run a wilwood tandem master with a 7:1 ratio pedal stock 72 front disc, and gm metric disc on back and it works fine. I also have a very nice pedal feel. Much like a power break feel.

[RichardJ]

This is an interesting thread in many ways.
"It will be just fine" has shown up in nearly every post. "Just Fine" as opposed to "Good" or "Better"?
Many here feel that his original Six would be "Just Fine" instead of a new LS.

This isn't 1970.

In 1970 you were riding on skinny bias-ply tires and P disc and 4 wl disc effectiveness would have been limited. In 1970 people weren't in as big a hurry and didn't tail-gate like today.
Yes, manual drum brakes will stop you, eventually, or should I say "Just Fine". Just don't expect them to bring a 4000# truck to a halt fast enough for todays demands. When my 6 cyl truck had drum brakes, 4.56 gears and I drove 60 in the slow lane, it was "Fine". Today I drive 75 in the fast lane and when every brake light in front of me comes ON, I know "Fine" would have never been good enough to get me down to 20 mph before hitting the guy in front of me.

If you think manual steering is better than P steering on the hyw, you probably needed an alignment. You're out of your mind if you think 5:1 ratio is fun with todays congestion, compact parking and 10 cars annoyed at you arm wrestling an old truck into a parallel parking space.

Choosing an expensive Wilwood MC w/out power, simply means you chose "looks" over brake effectiveness. "Fine" over good or better. It may look good, but you know Wilwood will advise you differently, if you want more braking than a Trailer Queen needs.

Todays conditions, demand better than "Fine", if you're going for todays power.

Still a six, but 4bbl, headers, etc, 3.54 gears, P steer, P brakes and of course AC, all of which makes for a much, much more enjoyable ride.

[muley]

Originally Posted by Robznob11

I run a wilwood tandem master with a 7:1 ratio pedal stock 72 front disc, and gm metric disc on back and it works fine. I also have a very nice pedal feel. Much like a power break feel.

Thanks. Something I will look into. I'm planning on changing to a GM disc front and firming up the suspension. The rear with overloads is solid enough to haul the camper just fine. The rear is an HO52 with a pinion bolt 4:10. I have no trouble with the brakes for now, but entertain the idea of changing that to disc also. I have plenty of power, but the original motor is tired.

[weq92f]

Originally Posted by RichardJ

If you think manual steering is better than P steering on the hyw, you probably needed an alignment. You're out of your mind if you think 5:1 ratio is fun with todays congestion, compact parking and 10 cars annoyed at you arm wrestling an old truck into a parallel parking space.

Gotta take exception to this. The Highway feel of a manual box does indeed provide the driver much better feedback/feel and makes for a better driving experience...while the vehicle is moving. I actually have experience driving a manual steering box C10 for a good number of years as my daily driver so I'm not just spewing nonsense here.

Granted, the ratio and the lack of power assist does have its drawbacks, most notably in situations where the driver is forced to steer the truck while the truck is either not moving or moving very, very slowly. Even so, the manual box is meant to help overcome these issues and so makes the task doable even with today's large diameter and width wheel and tire combos.

Lack of power steering seems to scare people who have never experienced it before. Seems like most folk actually believe that a no PS car or truck is as hard to steer as a PS car or truck without the engine running! Simply not true.

-klb

[RichardJ]

>>makes the task doable<< is akin to "Fine".

I've had this same truck since '85 and half of that time was with manual steering. I do know what a 50 year old truck with manual steering feels like. I only wondered why I didn't do it sooner.
In the '70s I put a 413 Chrysler, P steering and P brakes in a '48 Dodge truck. I didn't like the Manual steering in it either.
When I want to feel the road, I get behind the wheel of something else besides an old truck.

[Robznob11]

Originally Posted by RichardJ

This is an interesting thread in many ways.
"It will be just fine" has shown up in nearly every post. "Just Fine" as opposed to "Good" or "Better"?
Many here feel that his original Six would be "Just Fine" instead of a new LS.

This isn't 1970.

In 1970 you were riding on skinny bias-ply tires and P disc and 4 wl disc effectiveness would have been limited. In 1970 people weren't in as big a hurry and didn't tail-gate like today.
Yes, manual drum brakes will stop you, eventually, or should I say "Just Fine". Just don't expect them to bring a 4000# truck to a halt fast enough for todays demands. When my 6 cyl truck had drum brakes, 4.56 gears and I drove 60 in the slow lane, it was "Fine". Today I drive 75 in the fast lane and when every brake light in front of me comes ON, I know "Fine" would have never been good enough to get me down to 20 mph before hitting the guy in front of me.

If you think manual steering is better than P steering on the hyw, you probably needed an alignment. You're out of your mind if you think 5:1 ratio is fun with todays congestion, compact parking and 10 cars annoyed at you arm wrestling an old truck into a parallel parking space.

Choosing an expensive Wilwood MC w/out power, simply means you chose "looks" over brake effectiveness. "Fine" over good or better. It may look good, but you know Wilwood will advise you differently, if you want more braking than a Trailer Queen needs.

Todays conditions, demand better than "Fine", if you're going for todays power.

Still a six, but 4bbl, headers, etc, 3.54 gears, P steer, P brakes and of course AC, all of which makes for a much, much more enjoyable ride.

Sir as it was posted before....the brake power is the same ...the only thing that changes is the effort...and as you know wilwood offers many options. They recommend the matching 7:1 pedal so that the manual system works as easy as a power system. My truck is far from a trailer queen and it goes plenty fast. Before you blast everyone you should check your facts. Ps.. I had power but due to clearance issues with the body drop, pb narrowed arms and other custom mods I had to have something smaller. As a side note I agree with the power steering caus getting in a tight place can be tough but with that said the road feel was better before I converted. Again with the arms and additional caster I did not have much choice. My truck is a blast to cruise and race! Have a great day!

[KQQL IT]

I did away with both power steering and brakes on my 73 like it as much or better than before.
It's not a daily driver, it's a fun hot rod.
And stops from 110 mph 1/4 mile passes just fine every time.

It has a better pedal than my other 3 pickups with power assist brakes. One of is hydra boost which is the worst pedal of the group.

It'll be just fine.

[weq92f]

Originally Posted by KQQL IT

It'll be just fine.

Just fine!

-klb

[60apache]

Originally Posted by Robznob11

The power brakes did have that power booster feel. But this wilwood set up is fine. It is not a hard pedal like some factory setups. It has a nice feel. I actually just installed a 9" rear with rear disc too and I still like it with disc on 4 corners. Infact I usually drive bare footed. I don't like all the dirt on the new black carpet, so I kick the shoes off😆

how do you like it? give me a comparison. if you could've kept the power brakes would you?

[Robznob11]

Originally Posted by 60apache

how do you like it? give me a comparison. if you could've kept the power brakes would you?

I like it, I don't feel I need power! Will they throw you through the window....eeeehhh probably not. But it didn't do that when I had power either. I would step up in brake size before I would add power. But that's my .02

[jocko]

Well, back to the OP question. The answer is no, you don't need ps or pb. But the question is whether you want them.. A booster won't improve braking perf, as several have correctly pointed out - just makes it less effort to stop exactly the same as you do today. If you're dropping in more hp, why not take the time now to actually improve the braking and upgrade the front to stock 71/72 disks? A perfectly tuned drum setup will not stop you as well as a bone stock disk setup. I've driven both in several different vehicles as I'm sure most all of us have, and while there are certainly scenarios where manual brakes are appropriate for space, originality, or you name it - your stated goal is for cruising and you're also not staying original with a new motor. Make it a cruiser and add ps and pb disks and you will not regret it. There is a reason all vehicles come with all this nowadays. These are pretty basic swaps that lots of folks have done and for which there is a ton of info on this board alone. CaptainFab makes a slick, close to the firewall bracket that makes adding a booster super-easy and compact. Anyway - I guess my point is that you already know what a manual drum setup feels like and you know what an ps/pb vehicle feels like - so, that kinda makes everyone's individual opinions (mine included) kind of irrelevant - all that matters is which setup you prefer. I think that is the reason some prefer manual steering on the highway over old school "full" power, is because it requires such a light touch compared to today's power assist steering setups, so manual gives the perception of more road feel. But ps wasn't exactly invented for highway driving, it was invented for very low-speed maneuvering around a parking lot to reduce effort. Anyway, for me personally, I still prefer ps, I actually prefer it to the modern assist-style, highway or parking lot, but that's just me. All up to you - I do think you would enjoy your truck more as a cruiser if you take the time (and $) to make the upgrades to ps and pb disk. Time and $ don't always allow, but they are good upgrades for when time and $ do allow. The only safety improvement is the disk upgrade, power or not doesn't matter. Have fun!

[Robznob11]

Originally Posted by jocko

Well, back to the OP question. The answer is no, you don't need ps or pb. But the question is whether you want them.. A booster won't improve braking perf, as several have correctly pointed out - just makes it less effort to stop exactly the same as you do today. If you're dropping in more hp, why not take the time now to actually improve the braking and upgrade the front to stock 71/72 disks? A perfectly tuned drum setup will not stop you as well as a bone stock disk setup. I've driven both in several different vehicles as I'm sure most all of us have, and while there are certainly scenarios where manual brakes are appropriate for space, originality, or you name it - your stated goal is for cruising and you're also not staying original with a new motor. Make it a cruiser and add ps and pb disks and you will not regret it. There is a reason all vehicles come with all this nowadays. These are pretty basic swaps that lots of folks have done and for which there is a ton of info on this board alone. CaptainFab makes a slick, close to the firewall bracket that makes adding a booster super-easy and compact. Anyway - I guess my point is that you already know what a manual drum setup feels like and you know what an ps/pb vehicle feels like - so, that kinda makes everyone's individual opinions (mine included) kind of irrelevant - all that matters is which setup you prefer. I think that is the reason some prefer manual steering on the highway over old school "full" power, is because it requires such a light touch compared to today's power assist steering setups, so manual gives the perception of more road feel. But ps wasn't exactly invented for highway driving, it was invented for very low-speed maneuvering around a parking lot to reduce effort. Anyway, for me personally, I still prefer ps, I actually prefer it to the modern assist-style, highway or parking lot, but that's just me. All up to you - I do think you would enjoy your truck more as a cruiser if you take the time (and $) to make the upgrades to ps and pb disk. Time and $ don't always allow, but they are good upgrades for when time and $ do allow. The only safety improvement is the disk upgrade, power or not doesn't matter. Have fun!

I believe you are correct if you are comparing stock manual brakes to stock power brakes. However an aftermarket manual set up is as good or dare I say better than a stock power assist. It's a function of leverage to make psi. The booster uses vacuum to assist. A well designed manual set up uses leverage by changing fulcrum points and pedal ratio. The benefit of this is having road/brake feel. Plus there is less weight and parts to break....that's why many race cars are manual set up. So as you correctly said we all have opinions...and this is mine.... I don't think you should make a statement that because you drove both power and manual that the power is better. In most cases it may seem so but unless you have driven a good well designed manual set up you don't really know. That would be like me saying a 350 sbc is better than a 454BBC because the only one I ever experienced was Bob's 454 down the road that he built in his garage (you know the one with too big a cam, and to low of compression) again I'm not saying manual is better. But don't count them out. In the end you are going to have to spend the coin to upgrade, question is how do you want to spend it. Another good reason for a manual set up is the engine choice. How much vacuum will your engine make when you are done, do you ever plan to make the engine more high performance? For his cruiser probably not...but some guys (me being one) can never get enough and the build gets bigger and wilder by the day. If that's you...my motto is plan ahead leave yourself room to grow...over the years I have learned this so I'm not shelling out money just to make a change requiring me to respend more money to replace my already new parts with bigger better ones.
One last thing, yes I know I know opinions are like butts everyone has one.....I'm just trying to state the facts... it's up to each person to make their decisions!

[volksworld]

had my truck since 1975...the drums weren't adequate so i put a 75 suburban crossmember in it in about 1979 for the discs....retained the manual master and drove it that way for 20 years....and it was a tow truck...stopped fine...even with a car on the hook....when i did the resto i pulled the wrecker boom off...only then did i put in a disc brake master and proportioning valve ....disc and drum both the same bore, only difference was the bigger resevoir....

[jocko]

Originally Posted by Robznob11

I believe you are correct if you are comparing stock manual brakes to stock power brakes. However an aftermarket manual set up is as good or dare I say better than a stock power assist. It's a function of leverage to make psi. The booster uses vacuum to assist. A well designed manual set up uses leverage by changing fulcrum points and pedal ratio. The benefit of this is having road/brake feel. Plus there is less weight and parts to brake....that's why many race cars are manual set up. So as you correctly said we all have opinions...and this is mine.... I don't think you should make a statement that because you drove both power and manual that the power is better. In most cases it may seem so but unless you have driven a good well designed manual set up you don't really know. That would be like me saying a 350 sbc is better than a 454BBC because the only one I ever experienced was Bob's 454 down the road that he built in his garage (you know the one with too big a cam, and to low of compression) again I'm not saying manual is better. But don't count them out. In the end you are going to have to spend the coin to upgrade, question is how do you want to spend it. Another good reason for a manual set up is the engine choice. How much vacuum will your engine make when you are done, do you ever plan to make the engine more high performance? For his cruiser probably not...but some guys (me being one) can never get enough and the build gets bigger and wilder by the day. If that's you...my motto is plan ahead leave yourself room to grow...over the years I have learned this so I'm not shelling out money just to make a change requiring me to respend more money to replace my already new parts with bigger better ones.
One last thing, yes I know I know opinions are like butts everyone has one.....I'm just trying to state the facts... it's up to each person to make their decisions!

Yes, I'm just talking stock vs stock, good point. Once you go to a more tuned, custom set-up like yours, no doubt it can be made into a vastly improved system. As for opinions, I agree, we're all stating our own of course, OP has to decide (and I think he already has) - and your setup opens up an option most probably haven't considered. I had a stock single pot non-power 66 and drove it forever like that, then made the "big" upgrade to a dual res mc (woo hoo!) without adding power or any other changes. It wasn't to improve anything other than to add a safety layer. But it was a fun upgrade. Had I kept it, I would have added a booster with CaptainFab's kit, and maybe even disks eventually. Anyway, didn't mean to imply opinions and options weren't good info (and re-reading it, I certainly could have worded it better!), apologies if it came across that way - they are indeed what make this board interesting. In fact, the more opinions, the better. If, for example, only one person responded and said that "yes, you must have power brakes because it's much safer and adds tremendous stopping power" - then the OP may have made his decision off of bad gouge. More opinions help separate the wheat from the chaff for the OP.

[BCOWANWHEELS]

If you have strong legs and arms / shoulders run manuel. If you load / tow heavy better do power