Top Kick

[Willie B]

I have a 1976 C65 With GM 427 Tall block truck engine, 5 speed, two speed rear. It is a gas hog, and severely under powered.

I have bought a fire truck, a 1990 Top kick 7000 with Caterpillar 3208 Turbo V8, Allison transmission. My plan is to move the dump bed to it, and the pintle hitch. Obstacles are hydraulic pump, and drive shaft after I remove the Hale fire pump.

I seek advice on pump choices. Electric is available, I don't know how well it will perform. Pto, I'm not sure of as the Allisons may, or may not have a gear to drive it. Belt driven is challenging, no pulley available, or brackets to mount. Linear with crankshaft, the radiator, oil cooler is in the way.

Drive shaft: I believe grave yards must exist, Where are they?

Oh, I'm in Mid VT between Manchester, and Rutland.

Willie B

[sweetk30]

any place that sells big truck parts can make or tell you were to have a drive shaft made up . that would be the best i would think .

allision should have pto cover port they have on most for years .

and any pics of the units ?

last welcome to the site .

[Willie B]

I figured the driveshaft to be a simple purchase from a salvage yard. I have lathe, and TIG welder, so I could build it, but hoped for a shortcut.

The window for PTO is at the top slightly to the passenger side in this transmission. I can use it only with alteration to the floor. Again doable, but I hoped for a shortcut.
Newer diesels, there are aftermarket companies offering hydraulic kits to belt drive off the engine. This Cat 3208 is long out of production.
I haven't yet decided which road to turn down. Electric is easiest, but may not perform well.

Willie

[sweetk30]

do you have a way to balance that drive shaft ? ? ? if not it can vibrate and cause problems.

if you can fab stuff then a few simple brackets can be made easy to mount a belt driven hydro pump on the engine .

[Willie B]

Balance is something I'd be hard pressed to perfect. This would not turn faster than 2300 RPM, I was hoping vibration wouldn't be excessive.

As for belt drive, it has 5 grooves for V belts on the engine crankshaft. The radiator would be in the way of adding more. It uses two for air compressor, two for 200 amp alternator, and one for power steering. The only way I have room for more belt driven implements is move the alternator, add hydraulic, and place an idler between them to guide the back of the V belts. How well that would work, I don't know.

[Indyfab]

I had an older International 5 yard dump truck with a DT466, the hydraulic pump was mounted in the front bumper area and driven directly off the crankshaft via a drive shaft. It had splines to enable belt changes since the driveshaft is bolted with the same bolts as the lower pulley. The pros are that the hydraulics are not dependent on a pto, so operational all the time. Cons are that the pump is always being driven. The vehicle was an ex highway maintenance vehicle. For what it’s worth in my experience, the pros very much outweighed the cons.

[Willie B]

Unfortunately, the radiator is in the way.

[Peanutbutter]

If it would help I have a serpentine belt driven pump with a electric clutch on it, in other words its a electric clutch pump. I was using it to run 18,000 lb winch, let me know if you need pics.

[Willie B]

I don't know. Serpentine is not what the engine has. It seems each part needed for the project is another dead end. I'm leaning toward electric.

Willie

[350TacoZilla]

I have to say I have been impressed with the electric over hydraulic dump trailer my dad got few years ago. We have had a few different dump trucks with pto setups and were skeptical of the electric unit at first but I have dumped 7T of stones out of it 4-5 times in a day before with 0 problems and its nice not to have to idle the truck up every time just to offload.

I would think you could just grab one of the pump assemblies from either a local trailer place or place like northern tools and just retro fit it to your existing cylinder (or cylinders as the case may be)

[Willie B]

Originally Posted by 350TacoZilla

I have to say I have been impressed with the electric over hydraulic dump trailer my dad got few years ago. We have had a few different dump trucks with pto setups and were skeptical of the electric unit at first but I have dumped 7T of stones out of it 4-5 times in a day before with 0 problems and its nice not to have to idle the truck up every time just to offload.

I would think you could just grab one of the pump assemblies from either a local trailer place or place like northern tools and just retro fit it to your existing cylinder (or cylinders as the case may be)

I'm leaning that way. I have a 200 amp alternator, two new massive batteries. I haven't found a big enough unit though. The biggest I've found is 3 GPM. I haven't calculated cylinder volume, but I feel I want 6 or more GPM. I carry about 14000 LBS, plus the body weight.

[Peanutbutter]

Its easy to change the serpentine clutch to a 2 belt airconditioning clutch if that works better.

[350TacoZilla]

Not sure how big pump and reservoir is on his trailer. Its a Bri-Mar 14ft-14K rated trailer with 2 telescoping cylinders (some call them 2 stage cylinders) that are single acting (power up, gravity down).

[Willie B]

Originally Posted by Peanutbutter

Its easy to change the serpentine clutch to a 2 belt airconditioning clutch if that works better.

Thanks.......maybe. There is still the obstacle of mounting. Alternator is on the passenger side very low. Lots of stuff in the way, but it could be moved. I'm considering a mount above the alternator with an idler pulley between them. They'd share the two belts. I can foresee problems with this arrangement, but it's the only belt drive I see as even possible.

Willie

[Willie B]

I found a PTO with hydraulic pump It is used, guaranteed to be in good condition. It is from a yard mule. I know nothing about the hydraulic needs of yard mules. I hope it is compatible.

[sweetk30]

super short of hydro is pump volume and psi output .

see if you can get info off the pump .

and fyi pto units are specific to there transmission they were built to be installed on . so you cant take one off a abc-123 trans and just bolt it on and work on a xyz-789 trans . there is different gears and spacing to work out .

i hope your unit come off the same model trans . lots of older pto units the parts are not there anymore.

[Willie B]

Originally Posted by sweetk30

super short of hydro is pump volume and psi output .

see if you can get info off the pump .

and fyi pto units are specific to there transmission they were built to be installed on . so you cant take one off a abc-123 trans and just bolt it on and work on a xyz-789 trans . there is different gears and spacing to work out .

i hope your unit come off the same model trans . lots of older pto units the parts are not there anymore.

Muncie, the PTO builder says all gears needed for MT643 transmission are there. You may have to rearrange them in the first stage of PTO. The hydraulic pump has no useful tag on it. It is described as a cloverleaf flange for fitting to Parker pumps. When it arrives I'll have a better notion of displacement. I think it's a gamble whether it works.

Willie

[Willie B]

It arrived damaged. The PTO was removed from the donor transmission with plasma, or acetylene torch cutting bolts. One bolt hole in the flange is heavily damaged. No word yet from the seller in California.[IMG][IMG]Damage2[/IMG][/IMG]

[sweetk30]

i FU*KING HATE slasher junk yards

dam places waste out time and money with that style of work .

i had a local junk yard the place i use to work for insisted we buy from them . 1 day i got a alternator that was FROZEN solid . . . then the used rims ware always bent worse than the ones i was trying to swap out for customers . i told them buy a old dead balancer and spin check each rim and watch it . . . . i started getting good rims after this .

[Willie B]

Today we removed the fire truck body. Lots of wires, plenty of hoses. It all unbolted, but lifting it high enough to clear the wheels was not easy! We used the backhoe to lift the front lift point, enabling me to move left right, front back, and up down. had it been 100 lbs more, I don't think I could have moved it.

The back we lifted with an International 385 farm tractor with loader. These tractors are intended to lift manure, topsoil, feed, and occasional driveway gravel. They weren't built to lift fire truck bodies.

Next step is driveshaft. I can build a driveshaft, but I can't precisely balance it.

[Willie B]

Seller has yards nationwide they have promised a different unit from another yard to replace the damaged one.

[jumpsoffrock]

Man you gotta take some pictures of t his, sounds really interesting. But I just can't imagine you getting any better mpg out of the Cat.

[Willie B]

There is more reason than just economy. The cost of purchase, and fit up would buy a lot of gas. VT is nothing but hills, I hope to climb them without so much gearing down, and running at 3600 RPM. This truck is wide open all the time. Empty, the 1976 C65 performs acceptably. Loaded, it works real hard up, or down. Gas mileage is awful![IMG]Fire Truck Cab[/IMG]

I can't figure out how to post here.

[jumpsoffrock]

You've got some good points. What's really sad is I felt my 327 SBC powered C50 was a bit sluggish when loaded or on hills, and felt that a BBC would fix it.

I guess not. Not sure what I'll do, but when that tired old engine comes out, I'm gonna have to build something strong enough to make the truck giddy up. I couldn't care less about fuel consumption since I don't drive my truck enough.


To post pictures, are they in a file on your computer? When replying to this thread, git the "go Advanced" button, below the text box, click a button that says "manage attachments". From here a window will pop up and click any button that says "browse". This will open a search window that can look through any file on your computer, but that can be a bit hard to use, so patiently look for your photo you want to post. Then click "upload". After that post the reply and you're good.

[Willie B]

Here is a picture of the fire truck before I took the body off.