This for any of you that are self employed doing Carpenter work Jobs

[GOPAPA]

I think of the stories on here that Tim has shared and a few I have.. I know there are others of you that have ran across this same thing I post below ,

CLIENT – How much will it cost to do this job?
CONTRACTOR - $2,800 dollars.

CLIENT – That’s too expensive for this job!
CONTRACTOR – How much do you think it should cost?

CLIENT – $800 max! It’s a simple job!
CONTRACTOR – I can’t do the job for so little.

CLIENT – People in your line of work wants to make a huge profit!
CONTRACTOR – I’m sorry you feel this way. Why don’t you do the job?

CLIENT – But, but, I don’t know how to do any of that.
CONTRACTOR – For $900, I can teach you everything you need to know to do the job. You can then use $800 to do the job, and you’re still saving $1,100. Also, you will obtain all the knowledge and the experience for the next time you need to do this job.

CLIENT – Deal!
CONTRACTOR – Great! To start, you need to buy tools. You will need a chipping hammer, a nail gun, a laser, a drill, a mixer machine, PPE, and some other things.

CLIENT – But, I don’t have any of those tools and I can’t buy all that for just one job!
CONTRACTOR – Ok. I can rent you my tools for another $300. You’re still saving $800.

CLIENT – That’s cutting my savings, but I will rent your tools.
CONTRACTOR – Perfect! I’ll be back Saturday and we can start.

CLIENT – Wait! I can’t Saturday. I only have time today.
CONTRACTOR – I’m sorry, I only teach others on Saturdays. I have to prioritize my time and my tools needs to be in other jobs I have during the week.

CLIENT – Ok then. I will sacrifice my family’s plans on Saturday.
CONTRACTOR – Right, me too! Oh, I forgot. If you’re going to do the job yourself, you need to buy the materials. There’s a high demand nowadays, so your best bet is to get a truck and be at the hardware store by 6am before other contractors get there.

CLIENT – AT SIX IN THE MORNING? On Saturday? That’s too early for me. I don’t even have a truck!
CONTRACTOR – I guess you’ll have to rent one. By the way, do you have some helpers to help you load the truck?

CLIENT – You know what? I’ve been thinking. Probably is better for you to do the job. It’s better to pay you to do the job right and not having to go through all that hassle.
CONTRACTOR – Good thinking. Sign here and let me get to work.

[Steeveedee]

So true!

[tutone]

Years ago, like 40 or so, we lived in a trailer house in a nearby town. The local high school bought the trailer park and gave us 4 months to move out. We had bought 2 acres and had saved 10k from both of us working all the time. I had limited carpentry experience but I had some electrical and some plumbing shkills. I bought books and crammed all I could in a few short days. I poured a footer, laid the blocks and built a house in 12 weeks and 3 days. I hired only the carpet laid. The rest I either did or got help from friends. I have spent a lifetime paying back to those that helped. I get it and people really don't understand what it takes to be proficient in construction skills. I hope there is a generation following us old guys that learn the trade. It is rewarding.

[72 tigger]

This is a project I’m currently working on. I think the homeowner was a little surprised at how much the labor was to put it together

[GOPAPA]

A photo before in the beginning process and after always tells a story ..and this one sure does ,, nice work and great looking when done.

[too much stuff]

Originally Posted by 72 tigger

This is a project I’m currently working on. I think the homeowner was a little surprised at how much the labor was to put it together

I can see the labor involved there... Looks good.

[special-K]

Great work, Kirk. Not only labor intense but a major win as a focal point entering the house. What's that worth when they go to sell?

Originally Posted by GOPAPA

I think of the stories on here that Tim has shared and a few I have.. I know there are others of you that have ran across this same thing I post below ,

CLIENT – How much will it cost to do this job?
CONTRACTOR - $2,800 dollars.

CLIENT – That’s too expensive for this job!
CONTRACTOR – How much do you think it should cost?

CLIENT – $800 max! It’s a simple job!
CONTRACTOR – I can’t do the job for so little.

CLIENT – People in your line of work wants to make a huge profit!
CONTRACTOR – I’m sorry you feel this way. Why don’t you do the job?

CLIENT – But, but, I don’t know how to do any of that.
CONTRACTOR – For $900, I can teach you everything you need to know to do the job. You can then use $800 to do the job, and you’re still saving $1,100. Also, you will obtain all the knowledge and the experience for the next time you need to do this job.

CLIENT – Deal!
CONTRACTOR – Great! To start, you need to buy tools. You will need a chipping hammer, a nail gun, a laser, a drill, a mixer machine, PPE, and some other things.

CLIENT – But, I don’t have any of those tools and I can’t buy all that for just one job!
CONTRACTOR – Ok. I can rent you my tools for another $300. You’re still saving $800.

CLIENT – That’s cutting my savings, but I will rent your tools.
CONTRACTOR – Perfect! I’ll be back Saturday and we can start.

CLIENT – Wait! I can’t Saturday. I only have time today.
CONTRACTOR – I’m sorry, I only teach others on Saturdays. I have to prioritize my time and my tools needs to be in other jobs I have during the week.

CLIENT – Ok then. I will sacrifice my family’s plans on Saturday.
CONTRACTOR – Right, me too! Oh, I forgot. If you’re going to do the job yourself, you need to buy the materials. There’s a high demand nowadays, so your best bet is to get a truck and be at the hardware store by 6am before other contractors get there.

CLIENT – AT SIX IN THE MORNING? On Saturday? That’s too early for me. I don’t even have a truck!
CONTRACTOR – I guess you’ll have to rent one. By the way, do you have some helpers to help you load the truck?

CLIENT – You know what? I’ve been thinking. Probably is better for you to do the job. It’s better to pay you to do the job right and not having to go through all that hassle.
CONTRACTOR – Good thinking. Sign here and let me get to work.

There ya go. Some need to be shown what a job is worth in an indirect roundabout way. I ask what they do for a living and how much they make and if they do any work without pay. Then I ask, "Do I not deserve to live as well?".

Originally Posted by 72 tigger

This is a project I’m currently working on. I think the homeowner was a little surprised at how much the labor was to put it together

That's right. Intimidate them with skill!

[LS short box]

We looked at building at a new house a few years ago. Got proposals from two well regarded local contractors. They were within a couple of thousand bid wise. We were shocked at the price. Both said the same thing. Material costs have crazy. And if you don't pay subs or direct employees top dollar the will go to someone the will.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by LS short box

We looked at building at a new house a few years ago. Got proposals from two well regarded local contractors. They were within a couple of thousand bid wise. We were shocked at the price. Both said the same thing. Material costs have crazy. And if you don't pay subs or direct employees top dollar the will go to someone the will.

And contractors have more regulations to abide by that boil down to increasing cost. On big jobs such as commercial or millionaire mansions these costs spread out. But for the individual homeowner and contractor they have become astronomical. In the county I've done most of my work in the cost of a new home building permit is now about $60,000. That's some expensive paper!

[Micmac]

Originally Posted by special-K

Great work, Kirk. Not only labor intense but a major win as a focal point entering the house. What's that worth when they go to sell?


There ya go. Some need to be shown what a job is worth in an indirect roundabout way. I ask what they do for a living and how much they make and if they do any work without pay. Then I ask, "Do I not deserve to live as well?".

That's right. Intimidate them with skill!

Next time you are in Maine seeing’s your family drop by and put one of those up for me! Beautiful work!

[jerry moss]

there was a vacant lot next to my dads house on our street my dad could have bought 10 or so years ago for 35 K, he didn't buy it. 2 years ago it sold for 135K- just bare dirt, now it's got a big 2 story house on it. the city permits were 100K, the power pole and wiring to the house was 40K,i don't know how much the water and sewer hookups cost since the lot was only bare dirt when he started.so he was in it close to 200 grand before he could drive a nail or pour concrete. the house i live in on the same street is on a 1 1/2 times bigger lot than his and when my parents bought in 1967 they paid 9K with the house and garage/shop on it already. how times have changed.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by Micmac

Next time you are in Maine seeing’s your family drop by and put one of those up for me! Beautiful work!

Sure thing. I built that for an architect. The only drawing was for the footer placement. She put one post in a basement window well. Also, the joist size she called for made for very little headspace at the steps and areaway. So, I went down in size, tripled the beams, and raised the elevation to under the door. I also came up with a way to cover the ugly ends of the cables at the corners and the way I made the guard at the 2nd floor door to match the deck railing.

She gave me a completion date, which went in one ear and out the other. They wanted this to have their wedding on and all I knew is I'd have it done in time. BTW, I had to hump all materials around the house, which was a fairly long truck. It got to a couple days before 'her' deadline and she spoke to me about that. "The 9th is Monday and you won't be done. What are we going to do about this?". I just said, "I'll keep working until your deck is done". "But that will be after the deadline." I asked her, "Do you want your deck done or do you want me to stop on the 9th? This isn't reality TV and what's important to me is I do the best job possible and that you will be happy with the results for many years to come. It will be done well ahead of your wedding and I hope it will be a wonderful day for you two". Then I got back to work

[LT7A]

Originally Posted by special-K

Sure thing. I built that for an architect. The only drawing was for the footer placement. She put one post in a basement window well. Also, the joist size she called for made for very little headspace at the steps and areaway. So, I went down in size, tripled the beams, and raised the elevation to under the door. I also came up with a way to cover the ugly ends of the cables at the corners and the way I made the guard at the 2nd floor door to match the deck railing.

She gave me a completion date, which went in one ear and out the other. They wanted this to have their wedding on and all I knew is I'd have it done in time. BTW, I had to hump all materials around the house, which was a fairly long truck. It got to a couple days before 'her' deadline and she spoke to me about that. "The 9th is Monday and you won't be done. What are we going to do about this?". I just said, "I'll keep working until your deck is done". "But that will be after the deadline." I asked her, "Do you want your deck done or do you want me to stop on the 9th? This isn't reality TV and what's important to me is I do the best job possible and that you will be happy with the results for many years to come. It will be done well ahead of your wedding and I hope it will be a wonderful day for you two". Then I got back to work

It's cool that you got pictures while the structure of the stairs was at that stage. Nice looking finished product, but the cut and placement of those stair stringers was its own thing of beauty. Some architects know that working together is what pulls a project together best. Others need to learn that what they were taught about assertiveness is often misplaced. To be fair, probably many of them have worked with contractors that don't take pride in their work or productivity. I have a buddy who's a painter and is working on a hotel renovation job where the general contractor exited after being paid 80%. They had more work left than they felt it was worth to bill that less 20%, so they just quit. Unbelievable.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

I'm not a contractor, but can believe it. I recently did a fence job for my gals dad. All redwood less the posts. Seven feet tall, material intensive, 2x12 bottom, 2x8 cap, three rails, and a trim top. I install wood posts to last 4-5 decades-ish, and screw everything down. OT, fence shops are consistently a rip near as I can tell, I've seen boards outlast frames, such as on this job, which was primarily miserable.

Near coast growth neglected forever, both sides of fence. Vines everywhere, fence was covered with them. Volunteer trees and bushes to remove too. At least two prior sets of concrete from fence no more. Discovered hard as &)*()^)^ slab right on the property line Thankfully only two posts long, where I installed the retaining wall it needed but never had. At least it was fairly easy clay digging after busting out concrete and cutting out roots. I'm too old for this *(^)^.

Most of the labor was prep, and that's where people often don't get it. I charged Tony's friendly discount labor rate at approx. $30 an hour, total $3500. Wouldn't do that again, but I do like to work, and results, I have lots of spare time. That fence cost him nearly $100 a foot, materials ran about $45 a foot with dump fee, oh my. California style, they charge a extra tax on State-imported lumber.

I've since removed every *&(%*% vine. Don't know what it is besides invasive with BA roots everywhere. Here's the LH side. Behind the backboard is where the fence deserved another "good neighbor fence" section, but the section retaining wall, a BA trees stump, not kidding, three trees in one, a telephone pole, a formerly useless corner post cross section, and an old footing to contend with (breathe) prevented it The fence is since decorated with road signs and such, the old man enjoys talking points.

Other then where I installed retaining boards, and what needed to be ripped out, the grade is surprisingly level. In other terms, the fence's top and bottom are level.

[CG]

You guys that can build stuff amaze me. I just dont have that gene. I try but the things I do are very amateurish if you look too closely. Mostly it frustrates me.

My job for 40 years was working on commercial grade copiers/printers/scanners/fax machines. I could fix/repair/McGiver (lol) pretty much any of them if I could source the parts, and many times I had to make do. Many times I would have what seemed like a mountain of tiny parts laid out across desktops, and still be able to get it all put back together and work perfectly. But you ask me to cut a 2x4 3' 2" long and Ill check it after the cut and be an inch off ... Sooo simple but arghhh! lol.

[72 tigger]

Originally Posted by CG

You guys that can build stuff amaze me. I just dont have that gene. I try but the things I do are very amateurish if you look too closely. Mostly it frustrates me.

My job for 40 years was working on commercial grade copiers/printers/scanners/fax machines. I could fix/repair/McGiver (lol) pretty much any of them if I could source the parts, and many times I had to make do. Many times I would have what seemed like a mountain of tiny parts laid out across desktops, and still be able to get it all put back together and work perfectly. But you ask me to cut a 2x4 3' 2" long and Ill check it after the cut and be an inch off ... Sooo simple but arghhh! lol.

We all have different gifts/talents. I wouldn’t have a clue how to repair a copier

[Getter-Done]

Originally Posted by CG

You guys that can build stuff amaze me. I just dont have that gene. I try but the things I do are very amateurish if you look too closely. Mostly it frustrates me.

My job for 40 years was working on commercial grade copiers/printers/scanners/fax machines. I could fix/repair/McGiver (lol) pretty much any of them if I could source the parts, and many times I had to make do. Many times I would have what seemed like a mountain of tiny parts laid out across desktops, and still be able to get it all put back together and work perfectly. But you ask me to cut a 2x4 3' 2" long and Ill check it after the cut and be an inch off ... Sooo simple but arghhh! lol.

If we was all the Same , It would be a Boring World.

I have always steered clear of working on Lawnmowers engines in my younger years.
Now I am working on them More and More.

Originally Posted by 72 tigger

We all have different gifts/talents. I wouldn’t have a clue how to repair a copier

Me Neither.

I do order another one when the other one Quits.

Before I throw it out, I do save the shafts for Machining projects.

[LT7A]

Originally Posted by 72 tigger

We all have different gifts/talents. I wouldn’t have a clue how to repair a copier

Amen to that. Takes me awhile to figure out how just to run some of them.

[special-K]

Nice job on that fence. The finished product looks great and everyone appreciates that. What they don't see is all it took to get you there.

That homeowner architect did created a situation that caused the job to take more time, by her own mistakes. Then she comes after me for not meeting her pie in the sky deadline? Uh uh, don't even try. I had done a few jobs for Stewart, her fiance and owner of the house. I knew nothing of her until this deck came up. She is much younger than Stewart and she was in some other career before going into architecture.

This picture shows how I framed the left side over the areaway differently to allow headroom she overlooked. rather than the joists resting on the beams, they run into the beam. or the beam is raised up to joist elevation, and it triple 2 x8 rather than double 2 x 10 which she called for. I don't need to stinkin' plans. Just tell me what you want

I don't know how these jobs I hear about get into too much money laid out, then contractor disappears. More money than sense? Then you hear people say, "Don't pay a dime until the work is completed". Yeah right. We contractors are not financial institutions. we get ripped off, too, and we aren't making money off of our customer's money like banks. We make money from actually working and producing a product. I take the down payment amount my state allows, 1/3. Next third comes at a midway point that is clearly defined, then final third upon completion. I refuse to take more than 1/3 when offered, and small jobs (like one day) I just do, then get paid.

I did a job for a guy who was very anal. The job was to replace all the exterior trim from wood to Azek. He required me to do it with zero caulk. He had the notion, as most do, that it would never need to be painting. Not true and not to worry. People get tired of paining wood and go for "maintenance-free". No such thing. Azek is porous and will end up being stained. but painting isn't like it is with wood. More like with your truck. You don't have moisture passing through from inside to out, which is what causes blistering and peeling that people hate with painted wood. I'm sure he'll end up painting it if he already hasn't, but I gave him what he wanted

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Thanks Tim and great work yourself. That fence is pretty, at $45 a foot for materials it should be. Only downside of this "good neighbor" fence was the limitations where I could drop a post, so the sections aren't equal width. That side of the fence corners five neighbors, wow. I only had to deal with three, where 2 of 3 posts were useless until I secured them "floating". Dropped a post near all of those, of course, and one near the "good corner" too, for good measure.

One of the neighbors wants me to finish the side on their property.....Hmm. I'm banged up at the moment. The area looks good on their side, but the other awfully green. My price is going up.....probably take longer though, so maybe it's going down it's heck getting old, JK.

[special-K]

The neighbor isn't your friend, so...
Just let your friend know they didn't pay full price so zip-it when he talks to the neighbor.

I can relate to dealing with existing piers where yours needs to go. On the deck I had to dig a few up. It's a good thing they weren't proper footers or it would have been a lot more work. The old ones were the size a posthole digger makes and less than 24". A proper one would be 12" x 12" (not a 12" circle) and 30" deep for our region. I don't pull permits but a build to code

This picture shows the top of a new pier and an old one I dug up


On the topic of money for jobs, I did this builder's siding and exterior trim for 10 years. His pay got slower and slower. The short story is he went belly up and I lost money. This house is one I never got paid for. What's really odd is I got a call for some work through a referral from the local hardware/home center 25 years later. It was this house needing gutter work and it was the original owner who I remembered talking to way back then

[GOPAPA]

Tim ,, are you still pouding nails ? Or semi retired.. Every since I left Oregon and moved to Idaho ,,I quit taking on side jobs no more ,only tell em how I would do it if ask .. Some great work you have done ,,like the photos ..

[special-K]

Thanks Larry. I'm still at it. Might not ever stop. I guess I'm semi-retired since I no longer work long hours 5-6 days a week. The only big jobs I do are long term spread out over time. mostly 19th century houses and buildings.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by special-K

The neighbor isn't your friend, so...
Just let your friend know they didn't pay full price so zip-it when he talks to the neighbor.

I can relate to dealing with existing piers where yours needs to go. On the deck I had to dig a few up. It's a good thing they weren't proper footers or it would have been a lot more work. The old ones were the size a posthole digger makes and less than 24". A proper one would be 12" x 12" (not a 12" circle) and 30" deep for our region. I don't pull permits but a build to code

This picture shows the top of a new pier and an old one I dug up
Attachment 2349685

On the topic of money for jobs, I did this builder's siding and exterior trim for 10 years. His pay got slower and slower. The short story is he went belly up and I lost money. This house is one I never got paid for. What's really odd is I got a call for some work through a referral from the local hardware/home center 25 years later. It was this house needing gutter work and it was the original owner who I remembered talking to way back then

That is funny, destiny destiny.....Not getting paid isn't, beautiful siding.

I suspect my friend only got $1000 from the old folks, who asked about finishing their stretch. But then again, I only did five posts their portion, though I did have to secure two rotten corner posts to the new stuff. I had to rip one too, my cheaper-end saws-all was a savior on this job.

Bummer I had to remove a section where the neighbor's children painted art, so long ago. He wasn't happy either, my friend has a way about him. The guy says to me, "the fence didn't really need replacing did it?". I suggested he pick any old post on that stretch of his property. I happened to be standing at his corner post. Come to think of it, I floated two old corner posts; all the old ones rotten. The run affects a lot of properties.

Ready for this? The prior pro. job built a 7' fence with 8' posts, and the post's top is the fence's top. Before a 1.5" tall cap anyway. Cosmetically, someone, perhaps the builder stacked one to two 2x4" in many places to make it appear level. So, cap plus 0-2 cap caps. Elephant in the room is the earth along the run is near nuts level anyway.

I build square concrete footings for wood fence posts. Just the top is perfectly square, using 2x4", to say 1.3/4" above grade for flat surfaces. Makes for some additional work, but looks nice; more than that lasts. At least for the climates I'm used to, where post depth should be well below the frost line anyway.

[kingsolver72]

I didn’t build these steps but I did cover them up with carpet this morning.
“Kansas Cap & Band”… fuzzy side up.