'63 K NV4500 removal / reverse build thread

['63GENIII]

Thanks Jason. Its killin me to look at that OD sittin on the workbench and not in the truck. Just tryin to find the time to get to it. Hey whats that in your avatar? Doin a frame off? I know youve got pics up here. Send a link! Chris
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[argonaut]

Yup, doing a frame off. Unfortunately my budget didn't allow for an NV4500 like I wanted... :P
My build thread is in my signature below.

[RANDY COX]

Iv'e been wanting to see pixs of your truck,Me LIKES very much,KOOL truck..

['63GENIII]

Ill get some more soon. Just took the trans apart and took a bunch of pics. Been real busy with my teenage daughters antics lately and its been cutting into my truck time. Boy I wish they were as easy to figure out as these old trucks!!!
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['63GENIII]

Ok, So I removed the rear yoke, input shaft and mainshaft as the manual showed. I can see where it could have been easier to buy the special tools, but I'm kind of a shade tree anyway and used to making things work. So far, the bearing separator and a little ingenuity has worked out great.

['63GENIII]

Here's the mainshaft on the stool. This bugger is heavy if you ever have to take one out. The manual says that if it won't "roll out" of the case after the input shaft, rear mainshaft bearing retainer and 4th gear syncros have been removed, that you must break the rear countershaft race and remove the rollers. I was able to get the race out without damage which let the countershaft move off to the side allowing the assembled mainshaft to "roll out". The second and third pics are of the third gear syncro and the gear on the side of third gear which is welded on. It looks like the gear on the side of the third gear is a little worn as the syncro has been rubbing against it. I was really hoping to not have to buy a new gear. There's also a pic of the 80$ Craigslist press which I haven't had a reason to use yet. Lastly, I shot a text to the guy who sold me the trans asking if he remembered me. The guy got back to me when he thought I'd be looking for more parts. When I told him that the "perfect working" trans he sold me had a perfectly wasted syncro..... wait for it... no response. I figured as much. I should have known he was a little punk. Oh well, this transmission will be right when it's done!

['63GENIII]

I also just received an old 465 - np205 combo that I had sitting at my brother's place up by Sac. I was thinking of using the bellhousing off of that and converting it to a hydraulic so I could get rid of the low hanging slave cyl. thats on the one currently in the truck. Now I've heard that there is a size difference in the bearing retainers of the 465 and the 4500. I read somewhere of someone having turned down the input bearing retainer on the 4500 and using the older bellhousing. Anyone have any thoughts or experience on this? Is the bolt pattern the same on the transmissions?

[Captainfab]

I just found out that you had this thread over here. Thanks for starting this thread and all the info and pics so far. Hopefully I won't have any issues with my NV4500. But if I do, this thread will help.

It is my understanding that the NV4500 has a different bolt pattern in addition to the larger front bearing retainer. That is as compared to the SM465.

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

I just found out that you had this thread over here. Thanks for starting this thread and all the info and pics so far. Hopefully I won't have any issues with my NV4500. But if I do, this thread will help.

It is my understanding that the NV4500 has a different bolt pattern in addition to the larger front bearing retainer. That is as compared to the SM465.

Hey John, Yeah I've got another thread as well in Engine and Drivetrain but that one may be a little shorter. I would have put it here but was afraid that it was getting off topic.

I guess I will keep the bellhousing after all if the earlier one won't fit. The slave setup isn't in the way, but I like the idea of just kinda cleaning things up if I could while I have the trans out already. I think I will sell my TH400 and the SM465-205 combos to help offset the cost of the syncros and possibly now bearings for the 4500 at this point.

BTW, I found that the 465 has a PTO on it that used to operate the Braden winch on my '64. I think it woud be a cool addition to the 4500. Does anyone know if the PTO's are interchangeable?

['63GENIII]

After doing some research, I did find ONE line in a thread stating that in '95 the NV4500 went to a different bolt pattern making it not compatible with the earlier bellhousings. Does this mean that the trans that I have (casting date of '92) may bolt up and I may only have to get around the input shaft retainer issue? I'm trying to get over to my Dad's place tonight to pick up the 465 and take some measurements. Just hoping someone here would know so I don't have to go through work all day today thinking about this. Nothing worse than crawling around in a rat infested attic on a Saturday with truck on the brain! Haha. The suspense is killing me! LOL.

[Captainfab]

That's how I found out about this thread.......

Originally Posted by '63GENIII

Hey John, Yeah I've got another thread as well in Engine and Drivetrain but that one may be a little shorter. I would have put it here but was afraid that it was getting off topic.

I guess I will keep the bellhousing after all if the earlier one won't fit. The slave setup isn't in the way, but I like the idea of just kinda cleaning things up if I could while I have the trans out already. I think I will sell my TH400 and the SM465-205 combos to help offset the cost of the syncros and possibly now bearings for the 4500 at this point.

BTW, I found that the 465 has a PTO on it that used to operate the Braden winch on my '64. I think it woud be a cool addition to the 4500. Does anyone know if the PTO's are interchangeable?

I just did a little more research, and you may be correct on the bolt pattern. I must have misunderstood what I read. The bellhousing that AA sells is listed for '96 and up GM or '93 and up Dodge NV4500.

I found another thread with a reference to the bolt pattern and input bearing retainer size. It sounds like the '92-'95 GM NV4500 will bolt right up to a standard GM bellhousing that has the 5-1/8" center bore. That is what would be bolted to your SM465.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=415769

['63GENIII]

Hey Captain, I did some more research too and now I'm really not sure. I was trying to get the measurements for the 465 BH as I haven't been able to pick mine up yet. The early NV trans is 10.07 cl to cl on the top and 10.394 cl to cl on the bottom. From top to bottom, 4.865 cl to cl. I couldn't find the measurements for Saginaw-Muncie online. Ill wait until I get the 465 BH to measure and post back. If It does fit, it could save alot of people some $ in the future. As far as the other thread, I haven't had any replies so I think it's a judgement call for me. I'm just going to keep the bearings that it has in it for now and replace the syncros with genuine NV stuff. This truck is a work / DD truck and seldom pulls more than 10K. I think the imported stuff should be fine for now. I was looking on Quad4x4's site and they even sell the imported stuff for their "less demanding" customers. I guess I'm one of those people at this point.

[Captainfab]

I did some more research today, and according to Advance Adapters, none of the NV4500's will bolt to a standard, GM bellhousing. The '92-'94's have their own bolt pattern, and the '95 and up is different again, but the same as the '93 and up Dodge NV4500. The '92-'95's have the 5.125" diameter register on the bearing retainer, whereas the '96 and up have a larger register diameter of 5.60".

I do have several standard GM bellhousings, I just didn't get around to measuring the bolt pattern on one yet.

['63GENIII]

Well I finally picked up the 465 last night and Captain you are right. Just some quick measuring shows that the two BH's are different. On the bright side though, I did score a cool old Spicer PTO off of the 465. Ive got to call a few PTO suppliers to see if I can adapt it to the 4500. Im going to try and take the mainshaft apart tonight so I can order the right parts and start putting this beast together again!
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['63GENIII]

Update on the 4500...I've been able to take the mainshaft apart down to third gear. I'm going to have to make a puller collet(?) in order to remove the third gear itself which was wasted by the syncro. I've ordered a complete kevlar faced syncro set, a new third gear, the 3-4 syncro ring and and some small parts. They should be here Monday and hopefully the reassembly pics will start rolling in. I never understood the kevlar lined syncros that everyone was talking about until I took it apart. The part where the kevlar facing is reminds me of a motorcycle clutch surface. The friction that the faces provide are what help keep the gears syncronized giving smoother shifts. Use the wrong oil, friction goes away and so does the smooth shifting. I'll get pics later if the camera will allow. I also found out that the PTO from the 465 will not interchange with the 4500. I'd have to find an input gear for it and I think the PTO has long been obsolete. I don't think it is worth the money to put a newer PTO on just to say I have one.

[argonaut]

Chris,
I'm anxious to see the assembly pictures.
Also, you can send that PTO down my way if it needs a new home!
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['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by argonaut

Chris,
I'm anxious to see the assembly pictures.
Also, you can send that PTO down my way if it needs a new home!
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You and me both Jason! The delivery date of the first shipment went from today (on the phone when I ordered) to Monday (from the ups website). Just trying to stay occupied for now. I still have one more shot for the PTO on another project. If I turn it loose, I'll give you a shout. Im gonna try to build the puller attachment tomorrow if the kids aren't trying to kill each other every time I go in the garage!

['63GENIII]

I made a puller for 3rd gear which promptly broke upon using and also bent the cage for the 3rd gear bearing. I ended up just grinding the race and using a cold chisel to get it off. Had I known that the puller wouldn't have worked, and getting the bearing off this way was so easy, I think I would have done this in the first place. The bearing was @ 30 bucks. There's also a pic of the stripped down mainshaft.

['63GENIII]

Oops here are the pics

['63GENIII]

You can see in some of the pics how the parts are "caked" with oil residue which looks to be baked on. The stuff had coated the syncros, making them real slippery and rough. I really think that the wrong oil was used previously.

['63GENIII]

Putting the mainshaft back together was surprisingly simple. Toughest part was the syncro hubs and sliders with the spring loaded lugs that engage the sliders. It took a little patience and my 7 yr old son to get the slider ring over the hubs and lugs. Heres a shot of the 3-4 syncro hub being pressed on. Notice the absence of the reverse slider (between the bottom two gears) on the mainshaft. Yes that rear mainshaft bearing has to come off again! I bought that bearing 3 times due to stupid mistakes. First time, I heated it with a heat gun (turned two rollers blue). I dropped it on the MS before I noticed the overheated rollers. I used the press to put it back on. Second time, I found the reverse gear slider hiding under a shop rag after I had the MS almost fully assembled. Bearing came off again. The third one went on after careful scrutiny and without issue. Pressed on again. The parts guys were howling by the time I went to pick up the last bearing.

['63GENIII]

Heres the countershaft. Nothing special here except that it is a MASSIVE part that weighs close to 30lbs. I just thought it was interesting. After I reinstalled it, I was able to roll the MS back into the case, install the 4th gear syncro, the input shaft and bearing retainer. I used indicator to check countershaft endplay (.004) and MS endplay (.003). The manual calls for .002-.006 on both with the lesser being desired on the MS.

['63GENIII]

At this point, I was under the gun to get finished so I took less pics. The syncro kit I ordered came with no 5th gear syncro and an extra 3-4 syncro. I had to run across the bridge to a shop in Hayward to get one. There I met Craig from Transmission Parts and Cores. This isn't a plug but he was the most helpful person and he could see that I was in a jam. I bought the 5th syncro from him and when I came back 2 hrs later to get reverse shift fork pads and a rear seal, he just gave them to me along with a bunch of good advice and tips. Thanks Craig! The rear output housing sealed and went on without issue as did the shift cover after a thorough cleaning of all the black scale. I helicoiled the rear trans mounts bc I had noticed on the first install that they were stripping out. Yeah I know the silicone looks like crap. I was in a real big hurry. I had to tow a trailer and backhoe to the ballfield the next morning to prep for my daughters softball season!

['63GENIII]

Here it is off of the workbench and back on the homemade trans jack. If I did this more often, I'd really think about investing in a real one. Had a couple interesting situations under the truck with this thing! After it was back in, I took a 4"x6" piece of 1/8" plate, drilled a few holes and closed up the trans tunnel that I cut on the first go round. More silicone of course! The Mr. Gasket shift boot was originally on the TC shifter. It helped cover more "real estate" over the trans shifter. Last pic is the slope that I had to work on. This is another thing I don't recommend when installing this transmission. Guess ya gotta run whatcha brung though! 4-1/2 quarts fo the Amsoil stuff that says right on the label "for NV4500" and we are good to go!

['63GENIII]

I took it for a test drive as soon as I put in the oil and was a little dissapointed. All of the gears seemed a little "notchy". No grinds, just not as smooth as before. 3rd gear was especially bad. It gave me the feeling that it could grind if I wasn't real deliberate in my shift - not forceful, just deliberate. It seemed as though it didn't want to go all the way into gear every time. Sometimes it was ok, more often though it wasn't. I didn't have time to figure it out though, I had to pick up the tractor (2500lbs) and trailer (2000lbs). I picked up the tractor, trailer and started towing them to my house which is through a bunch of hills. It isn't exactly the place where you want a slow shifting transmission. Still no grinding, just slow and notchy. I towed the combo down to the school the next day and noticed that it seemed to shift a little better when cold than warm. By days end, when towing the combo back to storage, it seemed to be shifting a little better... almost consistently. I am guessing that all the new parts need time to "mate" or break in? And maybe 3rd is the worst bc it has the new gear, syncro AND slider which need even more time to break in. One thing I did notice on the test run is that when on the freeway, Keeping up with traffic no longer requires spinning 3,200-3,300 rpm. The 396 was loping along at about 1,900-2,000 and seemed happy. Without a speedometer and just going off of the flow of traffic, it's hard to say but I think the TH400 that I had before was slipping real bad all the time. So much so that I thought it had a stall converter. I really like the 4500 so far and opening one up to make repairs isn't as difficult as I thought. I think this marks the end of my first build - unbuild thread. Thanks for reading! Chris