400-450hp 355 on a budget?

[bustedknuckles]

They are good heads (apparently I overlooked that in your original post...lol), but vortecs are hard to beat. From what I've read the 492 heads flow about 210 cfm at .500" lift, and the Vortecs flow 240 cfm @ .500" lift.

[von guido]

alright...with vortec heads you will never get more than 400hp out of a motor.
When i worked for summit racing I built a true 400 hp 350 for $3,000 with all brand new parts. it dyno'd at 410hp and like 380 ft lbs.. I put this in my 78 shortbed with a th350 and 3.08 gears and got 14 mpg.
gm 260hp crate short block $1600
lunati bm2 cam/lifters $150
trick flow KD 23* heads $600
edelbrock rpm intake $ 160
demon 650 carb $ 300
1 inch 4 hole phenolic spacer $ 15
holley blue e fuel pump $100

granted the heads i got at employee cost @600 but that shows you what can be done for 3k. All while backing off the timing and running cheap gas for daily driving. adding a small weiand blower would probably made that a 450hp/450ft tq motor...

[turbo350]

Originally Posted by von guido

alright...with vortec heads you will never get more than 400hp out of a motor.
When i worked for summit racing I built a true 400 hp 350 for $3,000 with all brand new parts. it dyno'd at 410hp and like 380 ft lbs.. I put this in my 78 shortbed with a th350 and 3.08 gears and got 14 mpg.
gm 260hp crate short block $1600
lunati bm2 cam/lifters $150
trick flow KD 23* heads $600
edelbrock rpm intake $ 160
demon 650 carb $ 300
1 inch 4 hole phenolic spacer $ 15
holley blue e fuel pump $100

granted the heads i got at employee cost @600 but that shows you what can be done for 3k. All while backing off the timing and running cheap gas for daily driving. adding a small weiand blower would probably made that a 450hp/450ft tq motor...

Which vortec heads exactly and what pistons/compression ratio?

[von guido]

Originally Posted by turbo350

Which vortec heads exactly and what pistons/compression ratio?

I didnt use vortec heads.. i used aluminum trick flow heads with cnc chambers... the chambers were 64cc and on the factory crate pistons it upped the compression to 9:5-1. I also forgot the aluminum roller rockers that i used. The heads i got at employee pricing @600 for the pair because summit owns trick flow....cha ching!!!!

[Marv D]

Originally Posted by 68 C-10 KID

There is a lot of HP and TQ numbers being posted up here. Curious if any one has the dyno charts they can post?

I'm going to side step this and add my 2 cents. I'm a vivid fan of the 6" rod 400sbc. You will have street ability TQ and HP numbers that makes the other combo's humble.

AMEN,, I always try to sit on my hands and try so hard to keep my mouth shut when I see "makes about" or "makes over" (not say anything about anyone here).

I apologize in advance for whatever feathers I may ruffle here but.........

the kid brought it up so,,, RE: those 'unfounded' claims...... inquiring minds want to know, SAYS WHO???

Desktop dyno is a joke, and to add... everyone inserts these lavish parameters when they don't know the 'real' answer. DDyno is foolishly optimistic anyways (it sells product so that's all they care about). So with pipe dreams thrown in they get a insanely inflated # to throw around the internet with the disclaimer of "about" or "more than" or my personal pet-peeve,,,, the same as some magazine build (but different ) and the article was nothing but a paid advertisement in the first place!!! . (and that is not pointing fingers at anyone,, just saying)
Programs like Performance Trends Engine Analyzer will give an honest estimate IF 100% factual and exacting data is input. Shaun has proved that over and over. But he doesn't GUESS at anything, and EA asks more questions than most, but experienced engine builders would know.


BUT,,, nothing is the 'real' answer except a true SuperFlo computerized engine dyno.

OK, sorry to those I offended,, and rant off

[von guido]

if you guys are trying to stay in a budget,why not go big block?? I have 1500 in my 454 setup and it has WAY more torque than any small block did...

[von guido]

Originally Posted by Marv D

AMEN,, I always try to sit on my hands and try so hard to keep my mouth shut when I see "makes about" or "makes over" (not say anything about anyone here).

I apologize in advance for whatever feathers I may ruffle here but.........

the kid brought it up so,,, RE: those 'unfounded' claims...... inquiring minds want to know, SAYS WHO???

Desktop dyno is a joke, and to add... everyone inserts these lavish parameters when they don't know the 'real' answer. DDyno is foolishly optimistic anyways (it sells product so that's all they care about). So with pipe dreams thrown in they get a insanely inflated # to throw around the internet with the disclaimer of "about" or "more than" or my personal pet-peeve,,,, the same as some magazine build (but different ) and the article was nothing but a paid advertisement in the first place!!! . (and that is not pointing fingers at anyone,, just saying)
Programs like Performance Trends Engine Analyzer will give an honest estimate IF 100% factual and exacting data is input. Shaun has proved that over and over. But he doesn't GUESS at anything, and EA asks more questions than most, but experienced engine builders would know.


BUT,,, nothing is the 'real' answer except a true SuperFlo computerized engine dyno.

OK, sorry to those I offended,, and rant off

I can usually guess pretty close to what a motor is gonna put out if i have all the specs laid out...its not rocket science.. however, i have been in the racing parts biz for years and raced even longer and cant count how many dyno sessions i have been to.

On my sbc build i listed, i based the combo off of a trick flow top end kit they used to offer. It was a 440hp kit if memory serves me right. I used a different cam that i knew wouldnt make as much hp but more torque and was guessing i would make 390-400 hp. I was pretty damn close but that was based off of a verified combo where i only changed 1 variable

[Pete357]

Originally Posted by von guido

if you guys are trying to stay in a budget,why not go big block?? I have 1500 in my 454 setup and it has WAY more torque than any small block did...

I just figured it would be cheaper to build up the motor I had rather than completely starting over. Block should be going in for machine work Monday, I'll have to keep you all updated with progress and some dyno numbers when she is done
Posted via Mobile Device

[bustedknuckles]

Originally Posted by von guido

alright...with vortec heads you will never get more than 400hp out of a motor.

I don't know where you got that info, but it is incorrect. Summit racing sells several naturally aspirated blueprint crate engines with vortec hads that have 405hp and 440 lb.ft.. So you're telling us that adding boost to a 400hp vortec headed engine is not going to increase the power???

I know this is off topic a little and I should probly just bite my tongue, but Vortec heads will absolutely make over 400hp n/a, and adding boost is only going to add power. I have seen a single turbo vortec headed 355 go 8.80s in a 4 dr chevelle. Pretty sure thats more than 400hp.

Sorry.

[Marv D]

I believe guido is speaking normally aspirated, and I'd have to agree, but I should sit on my hands let him clarify that himself.

And I'd agree with it DEFINATELY in referencing the GM production vortec castings. In fact making 400 n/a with a L31 head warmed over.... well,,, Hell even the ZZ4 / Fastburn package with hot cam and everything McClaren could do short of a real port job only made 380ish on a 'REAL' dyno.
The aftermarket offers a vortec style head (such as the Edelbrock E-tec in 170 and 200cc version, as does a lot of others) that is well capable of closer to 500 n/a on a big inch small block.

[bustedknuckles]

I guess I read wrong. I thought the OP was asking about using a small blower.

either way it doesn't matter much and I should have just left it alone as the OP is not in need of a set of heads.

[WAAF]

is the o/p set on that roots blower.. would a procharger be better?
I'd forget the hp # and build for a nice fat torque curve..
mag hp# are nice but at the end of the day you have to ask, while looking at the dyno sheet, just how much of the time will I spin the engine past 4000-4500 ?
remember these trucks are not lite.. torque is king baby..
with the right parts you should get 450+ ft lb at a nice low rpm with that blower set up right.. meaning set up for the rpm you plan on driving at..

[Pete357]

Originally Posted by bustedknuckles

I guess I read wrong. I thought the OP was asking about using a small blower.

either way it doesn't matter much and I should have just left it alone as the OP is not in need of a set of heads.

I am asking about using a small blower. And i may be in the market for a set of heads. Are there any Good cheaper aluminum heads out there that dont cost an arm and a leg? Or even some good aftermarket iron heads? Id like to stay away from the vortec scene kind of, unless its my only option. I know when it comes to heads you get what ya pay for but are there any decent aluminum heads out there that will work better than my double hump without breaking the bank?

WAAF-yea i kind of an set on using a roots style blower, just kind of one of them things i always wanted to play with, i deff covered the turbo with my monster on my powerstroke and the roots blower is deff next on my list of what to play with. I thought the torque curve on the vortec headed magazine blower build was pretty nice. 455 ft lbs peak at 3800 rpm and 416 ft lbs at 2800 rpm, i didnt think that was too shabby.

[Super73]

From what I know a roots will make more TQ in the lower RPM compared to a centrifical blower. But I have no first hand experience. I believe the centrififal makes more boost the faster you spin it.

Patriot makes a decent upgraded cast head for a good price. It is machined so you can run either a Standard SBC intake or a Vortec. It also allows you to get some lift on the cam and they flow pretty decent. If memory serves they make this same head in alum for $400-500 more.

[Pete357]

yea i started doing some research on heads and noticed patriot aluminum heads for their fair price, however i started looking up reviews and noticed just as many negatives on em as them pro comps on ebay. I dont know, right now im trying to fig out a way to fit some AFR's in the budget, but i dont think they will fit in haha. Either way, im going to send my old heads to the machine shop with the block and i guess the discussing of what we can or cant do will start there, i really cant afford to blow my budget at all, minus machine work the afr's fit the budget nice and snug, work is going a little deeper into winter than normal, by now its normally slowed right up so i may be able to expand the budget to $6000, but i dont want to push it.

[68 C-10 KID]

I'm a working man like your self. We are not rich so we can't afford to buy things twice.
The best advice I can give to you is never never cut the budget short on heads. If it takes another 4-6 months to save up for some AFR's I would recommend doing it.

AFR's are the best 23* head for the buck.
If a guy does the math on a complete head re build and port work your not that far off from a set of AFR's.
If you go better heads now there is always room for motor improvements later.

JUST my 2cent.

[Pete357]

Alright, ya talked me into it, im not sending my double humps to the machine shop, 64cc might get difficult to make a decent comp ratio with. I dont know, decision isnt final yet, im heading out to load it up to drop it off at the builder tomorrow, Ill deff keep everyone updated on what is going on as it goes and post up REAL dyno numbers when its finished maybe along with a dyno video if possible.

[Pete357]

Biggest factor being i have to watch how far i go due to the fact a 2 bolt main is what im working with, im doing the arp main studs i think i should be ok to 500hp, if i can break 500hp on this id be impressed.

[68 C-10 KID]

A well built 355 with aftermarket heads can. Even easier with a power supercharger/blower.
I built a 6" rod 355 with Canfield aluminum heads solid roller with a brodix dual plane intake and it made 518 on a super flow dyno.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Pete357]

I see, so maybe i should be careful on my head choice here so im not walking the tight rope of disaster with the 2 bolt main? Or should i put my fears behind and just build it how i want it?

[krazy_texan]

in my opinion you should not have a horsepower goal per say, yes 400hp would be lots of fun but you got to figure whatever you build will have more than needed unless you plan to race it often. I am currently building a 355 for my truck and the only work i had done was had the block checked out and new cam bearings installed then had the crank polished. then when i get ready to have the heads done i will take a bare head to the machine shop and have it tanked and inspected. other than that i am doing all the work myself. It has taken a lot of research and reading and talking to machinest and fellow hot rodders and gear heads to learn what i have and i am still learning more each day. I am working on a budget myself and i have no clue as of yet what kind of horsepower my engine will output but i have already ordered most of my parts and including machine work i am less than 2grand on my engine so far and i dont have much left to get for it.

[mud.man.rj]

Those arn't the best heads, save a few dollars and get a better modern set of heads that flow better and love the blower idea for looks and for power, albeit it will come in later with a blower than the 383 with more torque, but still would go with the blower, lose a bit of low end but a lot happier to be a bit different with the hood up. Keep us posted on the build.

[Marv D]

One simple thought here...... With forced induction your choice of head opens exponentially. It doesn't take a 'great' head when your force feeding it. Especially not at street levels.

Myself I'd do turbo over blower ANY DAY on the street. Probably more expensive in the long run, but a lot more pump gas / street friendly. I think the 'do it ONCE do it RIGHT' factor ought to be included in your budget.

If you spend less than $2500 on a small blower, intake and carbs and linkage to work on the setup I'll be absolutely AMAZED. Even with buying used / evilbay (which is a bad idea with a blower) I don't think you can get out that much cheaper.

Turbo's , wastgate, intercooler, plumbing, blowthrough carb / injection... it cost a pretty penny with a turbo. BUT,, 99% of it is transferable to another vehicle of any form, make or model.

And ... I have a good friend in Canada that drives 60 miles to the strip. Pulls a set of slicks out of the trunk, switches to a small 1 gallon cell with C16 fuel, clicks off high 8's at 160+ on the drag strip with a little twin turbo 421" sbc, with a set of the early AFR 227's..... and drives the 60 miles home! The 950-1000HP it takes to do that would NOT be a street friendly blower motor. I know your not looking for that kind of power, but it demonstrates the kind of street friendly thrills turbo's can offer. even SMALL turbos without all the high end trinkets offer phenomenal pump gas power. And spool time isn't the big issue it used to be. Sure a blower is instant, mat the gas and boost is there at 1000rpm or 8000rpm, blowers don't care. But if you have an instant 8psi boost, you have an instant shock load to the tire,, and is your suspension really up to it????? Turbo's are much more traction friendly.

Which,, all that brings me to Roger rule 1 again (I know, ya all get sick of hearing it) but....

Only a rich man can afford to buy cheap parts, because only a rich man can afford to replace them over and over again"

is a SMALL blower really going to satisfy the urge here??? How long before it doesn't???
Do it once, do it right.


As far as power level with a 2bolt... when was the last time you heard of a crank falling out of a SBC??? At around 500HP in a 100% stock block, stock iron main cap, stock bolt configuration, the main caps start walking around and signs of fretting is evident in the register. Most stock rods will give up LONG before the block and 2bolt main caps do.
These days buying billet main caps, main girdles, drilling for splayed mains, adding tweaks and tricks to a 40-60 year old casting that was NEVER RATED FOR ANYTHING OVER 370HP,, is foolishness. If your worried about the block, don't spend good money throwing band-aids at a inferior piece.

[bustedknuckles]

Originally Posted by Marv D

Only a rich man can afford to buy cheap parts, because only a rich man can afford to replace them over and over again"



As far as power level with a 2bolt... when was the last time you heard of a crank falling out of a SBC??? At around 500HP in a 100% stock block, stock iron main cap, stock bolt configuration, the main caps start walking around and signs of fretting is evident in the register. Most stock rods will give up LONG before the block and 2bolt main caps do.
These days buying billet main caps, main girdles, drilling for splayed mains, adding tweaks and tricks to a 40-60 year old casting that was NEVER RATED FOR ANYTHING OVER 370HP,, is foolishness. If your worried about the block, don't spend good money throwing band-aids at a inferior piece.

Agreed 100%

[WAAF]

Originally Posted by 68 C-10 KID

I'm a working man like your self. We are not rich so we can't afford to buy things twice.
The best advice I can give to you is never never cut the budget short on heads. If it takes another 4-6 months to save up for some AFR's I would recommend doing it.

AFR's are the best 23* head for the buck.
If a guy does the math on a complete head re build and port work your not that far off from a set of AFR's.
If you go better heads now there is always room for motor improvements later.

JUST my 2cent.

I'd take brodix heads first