The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network







Register or Log In To remove these advertisements.

Go Back   The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network > 47 - Current classic GM Trucks > The 1973 - 1987 Chevrolet & GMC Squarebody Pickups Message Board

Web 67-72chevytrucks.com


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-02-2016, 11:56 PM   #51
KQQL IT
At the body shop.
 
KQQL IT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California for now...
Posts: 3,904
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregski View Post
now when I started to go on my test run, my truck was idling at 13.5 AFR by the time I came back from the test drive it richened back down to 12.5 (???)

I recall reading somewhere that the Idle Mixture screws should be somewhere between 1/2 a turn and no more than 4 turns out, so I was approaching that lower limit of 1/2 a turn to lean it out, but before messing with the Idle Air Bleeds (which I am not even sure I can replace on my carb to be honest whichu) I decided to remove the carb and use my EyeCrometer to inspect the transfer slots (something you can't see with the carb on the truck)

My dad would drill holes in the primary butterfly's to adjust idle speed, to keep the transfer slot correct.
__________________
" That didnt make it any newer "
" Dont antique the equipment "
KQQL IT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 01:54 AM   #52
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by KQQL IT View Post
My dad would drill holes in the primary butterfly's to adjust idle speed, to keep the transfer slot correct.
Yes sir, sounds like your dad new his way around a Holly.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 09:52 AM   #53
AnotherWs6
Registered User
 
AnotherWs6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 606
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregski View Post
Thank you for the positive feedback, makes it worth while for me to stop and take pics all the time and document every step of the way, the gauges are so accurate and so sensitive that they show changes otherwise undetectable to the human eye, ear, or nose. For example barely moving the idle mixture screws like 1/16th of a turn changes the AFR by over half a point without even changing the RPMs, I don't want to start World War III or nothing but I am willing to bet many of the tune by Long Screw Driver To The Ear mechanics of yesteryear were most likely way off and either not getting the fuel economy they could have and or leaving plenty of horse power on the table

hugs
G
Very good points. You're scaring me with the vacuum thing. I've never been forced to diagnose a vacuum leak so I don't have any experience doing so. The truck runs fine, but I have my suspisions based on erratic brake behavior.

Anyway, here is a link the gauges I bought. They got good reviews not just on Summit but several other places as well. I like the fact that they are not too flashy. Anybody know anything about them?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-5130
__________________
1968 C-10 Suburban - Original 396/TH400
2002 Transam WS6 - M6 - Black/Black - Evil Garage Queen
2000 Silverado - DD - Small lift+Body lift+35" Duratracs+4.88's + Eaton TruTrac - Monster Truck
2010 Cadillac CTS Wagon Sport - Wife's DD and the only classy car we have.
AnotherWs6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 12:59 PM   #54
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherWs6 View Post
Very good points. You're scaring me with the vacuum thing. I've never been forced to diagnose a vacuum leak so I don't have any experience doing so. The truck runs fine, but I have my suspisions based on erratic brake behavior.

Anyway, here is a link the gauges I bought. They got good reviews not just on Summit but several other places as well. I like the fact that they are not too flashy. Anybody know anything about them?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-5130
Nice gauge, but I wonder if you would need their companion AQ-1 Data Logger black box Part Number 30-2500 for an extra $375, damn

See, my gauge has a mini computer built in and the capability to data log straight from the gauge, that is boss, and a huge bonus and one major reason I went with Innovate Motor Sports

One thing is for sure, having glanced over AEMs website, this stuff is still so unnecissarily convoluted and confusing, and it can be so gosh darn plain and simple
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 01:34 PM   #55
AnotherWs6
Registered User
 
AnotherWs6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 606
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

I agree. I'm seriously considering returning my two units and purchasing the same double unit that you have. I'm not sure if anybody else sells something similar, but I was looking at either your unit or one like it. As I think I mentioned earlier, it's the digital part that made me turn away.
__________________
1968 C-10 Suburban - Original 396/TH400
2002 Transam WS6 - M6 - Black/Black - Evil Garage Queen
2000 Silverado - DD - Small lift+Body lift+35" Duratracs+4.88's + Eaton TruTrac - Monster Truck
2010 Cadillac CTS Wagon Sport - Wife's DD and the only classy car we have.
AnotherWs6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 08:54 PM   #56
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherWs6 View Post
I agree. I'm seriously considering returning my two units and purchasing the same double unit that you have. I'm not sure if anybody else sells something similar, but I was looking at either your unit or one like it. As I think I mentioned earlier, it's the digital part that made me turn away.
try eBay I can see if I can help you out, here is the BOSCH LSU 4.9 Oxygen Sensor for only $29 bucks, this is by far the best price ever, even with the additional $7 bones to ship it, especially if you buy two of them and they combine the shipping

*Genuine* Bosch LSU 4.9 Wideband Lambda O2 AFR Sensor UEGO AEM Motec

so prices be coming down
Attached Images
 
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2016, 09:03 PM   #57
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherWs6 View Post
I agree. I'm seriously considering returning my two units and purchasing the same double unit that you have. I'm not sure if anybody else sells something similar, but I was looking at either your unit or one like it. As I think I mentioned earlier, it's the digital part that made me turn away.
Then all you will need for the bare bones minimum is their LC-2 Wideband O2 Controller you can pick one up on eBay for about $125 bucks

Innovate Motorsports LC-2 Lambda Cable - 8 ft. Sensor Cable 3881

no gauges needed for starters, use your laptop to show virtual gauges, your laptop will also act as your Data Logger - win / win

by the way we don't need no 8 foot sensor cables the 3 foot ones are plenty
Attached Images
 
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2016, 09:07 PM   #58
Corts60
Senior Member
 
Corts60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portland, or
Posts: 2,748
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Looks like this may have been a good read, but I couldn't get past the third post without a headache. Try not writing like that so people can read your posts without getting frustrated. Not being mean, just stating a fact.
__________________
1978 Chevy Silverado 5.7 Diesel/turbo 400/GV overdrive/3:73 posi
1993 Chevy Silverado 4.3L/Getrag MM5/3.42 gears
Old threadhttp://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...1978+silverado
New threadhttp://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=650751
Corts60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2016, 10:31 PM   #59
foamypirate
Registered User
 
foamypirate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pflugerville, TX
Posts: 594
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corts60 View Post
Looks like this may have been a good read, but I couldn't get past the third post without a headache. Try not writing like that so people can read your posts without getting frustrated. Not being mean, just stating a fact.
I don't see a problem with his style. Not everyone's writing style will be the same. I quite enjoy Mr. Gregski's.
foamypirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2016, 11:52 PM   #60
Riveted1
Tasty Cakes!
 
Riveted1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 2,112
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Loving this. Was wanting to try this on my vehicles. Glad you're taking the time to do it step by step! Keep it up.
__________________
I'm a little and a lot
Ground beef: A cow with no legs.

----------------
'66 Chevy SWB "Penny"
'67 Chevy Big Window SWB- aka "Pearl"
'72 Burb- "Betty" "It's not a hearse dammit"
'99 Chevy Ext. cab Silverado
Riveted1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 12:11 AM   #61
harley87ta
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sun City, CA
Posts: 34
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

I've been enjoying the post and all the information
harley87ta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 01:52 AM   #62
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corts60 View Post
Looks like this may have been a good read, but I couldn't get past the third post without a headache. Try not writing like that so people can read your posts without getting frustrated. Not being mean, just stating a fact.
apologies I should not post drunk, jk, I don't know sometimes the truck just makes me wanna speak that way, please give it another go as I polished it up a bit realizing this can be important information and should be taken more seriously
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 08:50 AM   #63
AnotherWs6
Registered User
 
AnotherWs6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 606
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

A couple of knocks on this guy's writing..... Odd. I think he's doing a great job at describing everything.
__________________
1968 C-10 Suburban - Original 396/TH400
2002 Transam WS6 - M6 - Black/Black - Evil Garage Queen
2000 Silverado - DD - Small lift+Body lift+35" Duratracs+4.88's + Eaton TruTrac - Monster Truck
2010 Cadillac CTS Wagon Sport - Wife's DD and the only classy car we have.
AnotherWs6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 09:52 AM   #64
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by foamypirate View Post
I don't see a problem with his style. Not everyone's writing style will be the same. I quite enjoy Mr. Gregski's.
thank you I appreciate that, I can remember my cool teachers by name to this day the ones that joked around the ones that were loose, think back for a second, can you, sometimes this stuff can be kind of dry and monotone so I try to joke, I'm just one of the guys sitting on a broken lawn chair having a cheap beer (I'm looking at you Ol' Milwaukee) and just shootin the _______ about trucks, you know what I mean, except instead of us being in the back of my house we are on the Information Super Highway
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 10:02 AM   #65
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Gentlemen as we sit here waiting for my Digital Vacuum Gauge to arrive I strongly encourage you to read the following Car Craft article by Jeff Smith. It is a very easy read and Jeff Smith is the Godfather of wideband tunning write ups in my opinion, very good at explaining things. So this is a good primer and a great place to start, it is also one of the oldest articles I found, as its from 12 years ago.

My two take aways were the difference between narrow band oxygen sensors and wideband sensors, and how at the end of the article he talks about diagnosing a Chevelle that has been tuned by a pro yet the equipment showed room for improvement.

Enjoy...

Tune In, Turn On, and Make Power
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2016, 11:36 AM   #66
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riveted1 View Post
Loving this. Was wanting to try this on my vehicles. Glad you're taking the time to do it step by step! Keep it up.
One tip to those wanting to dive in. Spend the extra money and get the plug and pray equipment that just works like I have, sure there may be cheaper ways to go, but trust me you would rather spend the time and energy on trying to tune your ride and figure out what adjustments to make to the truck (and there will be plenty of work and frustration and a learning curve there) rather than spending time soldering wires and connecting gauges to other parts that may or may not want to fit / play nice together, just my 2 cents and my 2 cents are free.

and guys this is so much fun, go for it
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2016, 12:52 AM   #67
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Finally got through to Holley Tech Support today and spoke with Tony about adjusting the secondary butterflies and exposing the secondary transfer slots on my 4160 carburetor to lean out the idle mixture some more.

He said that the secondary transfer slots sit higher than the ones in the primaries and should NOT be exposed.

However I could crack the secondary butterflies open a bit more to lean out the mixture further than the 13.5 at idle I am getting now.

We also discussed advancing my ignition timing from 10 to 12 or even higher as an alternative or in addition to.

He used a phrase that I have heard from tech support guys like ProForm the makers of my previous HEI distributor, it goes like this "see if your truck likes it" or "and if your truck likes it".

Now that's kinda subjective to me, and its like asking your three year old what they would "like" for dinner, I mean my truck will run and drive with the distributor anywhere from 0 to 18 and AFR anywhere from a rich of 9 AFR to 15 AFR, anywho just getting that off my chest
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2016, 12:57 AM   #68
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

more importantly my INNOVATE Motor Sports digital dual function vacuum gauge showed up, it also records RPM, so I am super excited to get that installed.

P/N: 3851, MSRP $169 I scored it for $130 new and free shipping on eBay

this will allow me to log RPM, AFR, and Vacuum, very cool as logging AFR by itself is like clapping with one hand

the cable in the middle with the black box at the end is the MAP sensor and the key to the whole operation as it takes vacuum and converts it to an electronic signal which the gauge can display

one gotcha is that this gauge did not come with the "intermediate" Molex cable to connect it to the existing gauge / controller so I will have to purchase that separate now I can use it in stand alone mode, but the whole point of going with all gauges from the same company is that they integrate and plug in to each other, very cool stuff
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Gregski; 09-25-2018 at 07:12 PM.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2016, 09:46 AM   #69
AnotherWs6
Registered User
 
AnotherWs6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 606
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregski View Post
Finally got through to Holley Tech Support today and spoke with Tony about adjusting the secondary butterflies and exposing the secondary transfer slots on my 4160 carburetor to lean out the idle mixture some more.

He said that the secondary transfer slots sit higher than the ones in the primaries and should NOT be exposed.

However I could crack the secondary butterflies open a bit more to lean out the mixture further than the 13.5 at idle I am getting now.

We also discussed advancing my ignition timing from 10 to 12 or even higher as an alternative or in addition to.

He used a phrase that I have heard from tech support guys like ProForm the makers of my previous HEI distributor, it goes like this "see if your truck likes it" or "and if your truck likes it".

Now that's kinda subjective to me, and its like asking your three year old what they would "like" for dinner, I mean my truck will run and drive with the distributor anywhere from 0 to 18 and AFR anywhere from a rich of 9 AFR to 15 AFR, anywho just getting that off my chest
10 degrees is pretty tame. My truck "likes" about 15-16.
__________________
1968 C-10 Suburban - Original 396/TH400
2002 Transam WS6 - M6 - Black/Black - Evil Garage Queen
2000 Silverado - DD - Small lift+Body lift+35" Duratracs+4.88's + Eaton TruTrac - Monster Truck
2010 Cadillac CTS Wagon Sport - Wife's DD and the only classy car we have.
AnotherWs6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2016, 12:30 PM   #70
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherWs6 View Post
10 degrees is pretty tame. My truck "likes" about 15-16.
I hear you and I used to run it as high as 16 myself but since I built (technically rebuilt my 1974 engine with 1999 Vortec heads) according to the GM Chevrolet Performance 350HO Deluxe Engine (19210008) Specifications


"Set initial spark timing at 10 before top dead center (BTDC) at 650 rpm with the vacuum advance line to the distributor disconnected and plugged. This setting will produce 32 of total advance at wide-open throttle (WOT)."

So I decided to time it according to their instructions, (at least to have a baseline) and then adjust accordingly. Just thought you all should know where I am coming from as I am a stickler for doing things by the book, within reason of course.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2016, 08:47 PM   #71
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

so one metric we have not touched on yet was Miles Per Gallon - MPG

here is my MPG progression since I got the gauge

9.19 MPG => 13.3 MPG => 15.6 MPG today when I filled up last

something tells me this gauge will eventually pay for itself
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 06:57 PM   #72
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

time to get my read on
Attached Images
  
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 06:11 PM   #73
Will206
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Brookings
Posts: 42
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

I ordered one of these when I started my project but apparently I didn't do my research well enough.

I got the Innovate Motorsports kit with the single wideband O2 and a simple gauge that displays the A/F.

It does have the LC-2 controller so at least I can log it on my laptop, but I wish I would have spent the extra hundred and got the provisions for the better gauge and second O2 sensor.

I suppose that knowing one bank is better than nothing, and I could still add a second bung and just switch it to the other side as needed but that's a bit of a pain.

Greg: In your tests are the sensors always pretty close in terms of A/F?
Will206 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 06:35 PM   #74
KQQL IT
At the body shop.
 
KQQL IT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California for now...
Posts: 3,904
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Ha, I kept advancin the timing til it slowed down at the strip. Never did put a light on it.

It liked it alot.
__________________
" That didnt make it any newer "
" Dont antique the equipment "
KQQL IT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2016, 06:57 PM   #75
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,362
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will206 View Post
I ordered one of these when I started my project but apparently I didn't do my research well enough.

I got the Innovate Motorsports kit with the single wideband O2 and a simple gauge that displays the A/F.

It does have the LC-2 controller so at least I can log it on my laptop, but I wish I would have spent the extra hundred and got the provisions for the better gauge and second O2 sensor.

I suppose that knowing one bank is better than nothing, and I could still add a second bung and just switch it to the other side as needed but that's a bit of a pain.
glad you are in the game, please remember that if you run two O2 sensors and plan on switching the gauge/controller between them you will DAMAGE the disconnected sensor, so the proper way to do it is to have one O2 sensor and move that from bung to bung and plug the other bung with a plug, in case you did not know that, just a kind reminder


Quote:
Originally Posted by Will206 View Post
Greg: In your tests are the sensors always pretty close in terms of A/F?
great question, I have noticed that at cruising speed, for example when I am going 70 to 75 MPH my one bank runs leaner than the other, I don't recall which side does what but I do have the graph to prove it I have been saving that discussion until we get to the main circuit ie main jets, etc

now this can also be do to a persistant misfire but again we will cover that later, also this is when having an O2 sensor in each header pipe would really narrow it down but we're talking about 4 dual gauges there and eight total O2 sensors, super geeky stuff, but cool non the less
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1997-2013 67-72chevytrucks.com