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Old 08-01-2017, 10:42 AM   #26
B. W.
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Let's keep it simple.
- Forget the body ground straps. They are not part of the starter circuit.
- Using a volt meter, measure voltage drop on both the power side & the ground side. ( red lead to the positive terminal, black lead to the positive lug on the starter.) Disable the engine so that it will not run (ignition coil) Crank the engine.

Do the same for the ground circuit. black lead to negative battery post, red lead to starter frame (ground) Crank the engine. (It really doesn't matter red or black, you can swap them, it will still read)

In "Perfect World" you will see ZERO volts on your meter. Any reading up to 0.5 volts is OK, any more & you have excessive resistance in the circuit. This can be caused by loose connections, dirty terminals, bad cables. ( I worked on an old Nova that dropped 8.0 volts on the positive cable)

Last, check voltage at the small wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid (purple) Red on batt positive, black on small small post on solenoid - should see close to battery voltage when cranking.

If the readings are good, your circuit is good. No need to change cables, swap parts etc. This test is simple & quick. With a helper you can test the entire circuit in under a minute.

If the electrical circuit is good, focus on the battery or the starter.

You can eliminate the battery by having a shop (NOT A PARTS HOUSE) perform a load test on it (preferably with an old carbon pile tester like a VAT 40)

Some shops have starter test benches also, most are long gone now. Nobody rebuilds them anymore. But, if all the above test good, you can assume it's the starter.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:08 PM   #27
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

I'll try the volt drop test. I'm not going to say there aren't issues elsewhere, but considering the first starter developed a loose battery terminal lug and a screw fell out of the 2nd one, I'm fairly certain the starters are 99% of issue.

I do appreciate the rest of the feedback. First step was getting motor running and kinks worked out and I'm still working all of those out.
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:12 PM   #28
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

While the starters are suspect, generally hard hot starts, including slow cranking are attributed to high resistance in a circuit. While it may work on your Suburban, it's not working on your truck. Your lights aren't drawing what your starter is, especially when the alternator is not spinning. Take your known good starter off the Sub and throw it on your truck. You will likely get similar symptoms. If for nothing else, high resistance makes the rest of the charging system work harder and shorten their lives. If one size cable worked for everything, there would be no reason for these stores to carry multiple gauges.
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:15 PM   #29
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Out of curiosity, what size strap is best for grounding the block to frame, etc? There is a local surplace yard down the street from me, sometimes they carry bulk and I've thought about buying and making my own, but what they have currently is way too small. The local places seem to have only about 1/2" wide strap and I'm being told too small.

I not only want to add some on the 60, but I want to replace some straps on my 2003 burb because of 'reduced engine power' issues and worn straps are one of the dozen or so fixed for it.
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Old 08-01-2017, 01:26 PM   #30
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

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Originally Posted by nonstop View Post
While the starters are suspect, generally hard hot starts, including slow cranking are attributed to high resistance in a circuit. While it may work on your Suburban, it's not working on your truck. Your lights aren't drawing what your starter is, especially when the alternator is not spinning. Take your known good starter off the Sub and throw it on your truck. You will likely get similar symptoms. If for nothing else, high resistance makes the rest of the charging system work harder and shorten their lives. If one size cable worked for everything, there would be no reason for these stores to carry multiple gauges.
I understand what you are saying. Just seems like the newer fully loaded burbs would have much higher demands, but I claim to be no expert. I just start with what's worked in past and try to go from there.

I'm running the battery shut off for multiple reasons, one of which seems to be a draw on battery at times if she sits and the other is an extra layer of anti theft. Maybe the draw is part of the issue, I just haven't tracked it down, but you can very when I get the new starter in it'll be chased down. There just isn't much on this thing.
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Old 08-01-2017, 05:55 PM   #31
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Spoke with Tech Support at PowerMaster. They included a diagram that I thought was interesting and I wanted to know what they suggested for wiring up this starter as I've never ran a mini torque starter before. They suggest #2 wire on their diagram, but said #4 gauge probably is fine. I checked at O'Reilly and #4 is likely what I have. I may look back at my receipts and see if I can verify, but that's about all they sell.

I'm attaching a link to the diagram, but they say using a Ford Style Relay/Solenoid helps at times with these, but the wiring is different than the normal 'Hot Start' wiring because there is no jumper on the starter and the solenoid is wired different as well. Basically, from the Battery to the terminal on relay, then from this same terminal to starter. Then from the ign switch to the S terminal on relay and on the other large terminal #12 gauge wire to the S terminal on the starter.

While I'm not 100% sold I need a heavier gauge wire, I asked for input and it seems everyone is saying go bigger, so I'll heed the advise and I'm looking at #2 gauge wire, lugs and battery terminal ends. Any thoughts on these?
https://www.amazon.com/Military-Spec.../dp/B00X36RILW

Here's a link to the starter wiring. http://www.powermastermotorsports.co..._GMMiniSta.pdf
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Old 08-01-2017, 08:14 PM   #32
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

FWIW none of my vehicles have battery cables larger than 4 ga and all my Chevys are grounded to the alternator bracket like it came from the factory. I have no idea why yours doesn't work that way. You must be getting a lot of dud starters. My next starter will be a 98 Tahoe starter.
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:19 PM   #33
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Simple question.....this mini torque starter says to check spacing between gears I can leave positive battery cable unhooked from starter and with the R terminal hooked up, turn key and let bendix pop out for less than thirty seconds.

I don't have a helper right now to turn key, any reason I can't use jumper with full battery power to the S terminal instead soI can test myself under the truck?

Family finally came home do i was able to test. On the test runs with no power to starter motor the branding pops out, but doesn't always want to return. Is this cause for concern OR normal, when the flywheel doesn't spin? I can easily stick a small paperclip between the gears with no shim. The install instructions say 0.020-0.025 gap. The clip measures 0.033, which is obviously over the spec, but I can't go any tighter since no shim to remove.

The wire to S terminal is 12 gauge from firewall to starter. According to factory wire diagram the wire under dash from switch to firewall is 16 gauge. Somewhere I read maybe the bendix isn't returning due to lack of power. If that's the cause, maybe I need to update under dash and/or go with the Ford relay which calls for that wire to engage the relay and a 12 gauge wire from large terminal lug opposite battery cable to S terminal of starter.

Last edited by MASTERBrian; 08-01-2017 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 08-01-2017, 10:44 PM   #34
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Brian, in one of your first pics, I noticed a "pigtail" coming off of your + and - battery terminal clamps. Is the - pigtail connected to anything? If not, Id also consider doing so. I have mine grounded to the radiator core support to provide a body ground.

My + pigtail is routed to the horn relay + side as well then travels to the fuse panel.

I do see that it appears that your - battery lead is going to the alternator bracket. That is fine but Id scuff the paint under that lug to expose some clean metal there. Just think that the current / voltage needs the cleanest uninterrupted path when completing the circuit. Battery to solenoid, solenoid to starter motor, motor through starter bolt to block and back to the negative terminal on the batt. Any loose, painted, corroded or weak connection in between WILL compromise your starter's operation. There are a lot of links in that chain. They all have to be just as good as each other.

Have you been able to take your + cable directly to the starter to eliminate the battery disconnect as the problem? Thats a free test and another weak link.

FWIW, as far as the newer car grounding, they have a ton of straps seemingly everywhere. Our '04 Denali has at least 7 that I know of that are the size of the one you show. The Battery - cable goes directly to the block. The computers (which run constantly) need way cleaner and more grounding than our old trucks. Kinda like comparing an abacus to a MacBook.

One other thing about mini starters vs standard. While I do like a good mini starter (the LS engines come stock with 'em), keep in mind that the GOOD quality standard and heavy duty starters have been starting the likes of high compression L88's and LS7's (the real ones - non LS) for years without fail. They can probably be a good deal cheaper and less complicated.
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:33 PM   #35
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Pigtails currently go nowhere, but I planned on hooking them to something. I figured if run the negative one to a ground on radiator support, just hadn't done that yet. The positive I've been planning on running into cab for always hot source for electronics with memory, when I get around to installing things like radio.

Yes, I took my drimmel with small grinder to every connection that a cable good to that wasn't bare, clean metal. Then used dielectric grease on fittings to keep corrosion to minimum.

The shutoff switch isn't that old and worked fine with and without it. The specs on it also appear to surpass the required temp and constant for the starter to engage as well as the alternator. I bought the larger si style alt, which I believe is 125amps and the shutoff is 200 amp continuous. Can't recall the quick draw reasons, but it's still more.

I re-read the starter instruction sheet and it says it's common for the onion gear to stick until engine stated, so won't worry about that. It also says check in 6 places on ring gear, which I didn't do and come to think of it, I might have checked where it's hitting a worn tooth, so I'll spin the engine and check again elsewhere. I'll likely bump it with key unless someone says that's a bad idea until I know for certain as it'll be a PIA to turn it over by hand.

I figure the stock style would be ok, but can't easily locate a new one, at least not for much less than I got what should be a good quality mini from speedway.

As for the ground straps on my '03, I realize their are tons of straps...I've cleaned and replaced a lot of them already but can't easily get the ones on the rear, so I'm going to add new ones to duplicate the ones I can't get to, but that's a different problem all together.
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:05 AM   #36
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Picture of the pinion gear, aka onion gear above thanks to speak check. Is that decent engagement on the flywheel? Obviously you can't see the pinion to ring gear gap.

I also re-clocked the bendix so it was about half way between block and exhaust pipe. The thought was maybe it would be down where it might cool better. Meant to get picture, but forgot.
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:06 AM   #37
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by MASTERBrian View Post
Pigtails currently go nowhere, but I planned on hooking them to something. I figured if run the negative one to a ground on radiator support, just hadn't done that yet. The positive I've been planning on running into cab for always hot source for electronics with memory, when I get around to installing things like radio.

Yes, I took my drimmel with small grinder to every connection that a cable good to that wasn't bare, clean metal. Then used dielectric grease on fittings to keep corrosion to minimum.

The shutoff switch isn't that old and worked fine with and without it. The specs on it also appear to surpass the required temp and constant for the starter to engage as well as the alternator. I bought the larger si style alt, which I believe is 125amps and the shutoff is 200 amp continuous. Can't recall the quick draw reasons, but it's still more.

I re-read the starter instruction sheet and it says it's common for the onion gear to stick until engine stated, so won't worry about that. It also says check in 6 places on ring gear, which I didn't do and come to think of it, I might have checked where it's hitting a worn tooth, so I'll spin the engine and check again elsewhere. I'll likely bump it with key unless someone says that's a bad idea until I know for certain as it'll be a PIA to turn it over by hand.

I figure the stock style would be ok, but can't easily locate a new one, at least not for much less than I got what should be a good quality mini from speedway.

As for the ground straps on my '03, I realize their are tons of straps...I've cleaned and replaced a lot of them already but can't easily get the ones on the rear, so I'm going to add new ones to duplicate the ones I can't get to, but that's a different problem all together.
It sounds like you're on your way to getting it figured out. TBH, I had never given the grounds much thought until I nearly burned my truck down a couple months ago. The battery ground to the engine was just slightly loose, engine kept hard cranking. Thought it was battery terminals. Cleaned them and same thing. Turned out that I didn't tighten the ground stud on the block and the starter was using the copper oil pressure line as the negative and going through the body. Had wires under the dash laying on the copper tubing that got so hot it melted the insulation off of the wires, my defroster ducting (and picking up a new ground path in the process) and producing a ton of smoke. I call that tuition. The truck now has more ground straps than the Denali and they are ALL tight! No issues since.
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Vortec 7.4 - L29 Blackbear tune, Five 0 Motorsports injectors, Chris Straub Cam, NV4500, divorced 205
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D44 / 14bff - disc axles
Milemarker 9K and 10.5K hydraulic winches

63" & B52 Spring Install http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ng+swap+thread


NV4500 Reverse Build Thread http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=reverse+build

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Old 08-02-2017, 12:08 AM   #38
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by MASTERBrian View Post
Picture of the pinion gear, aka onion gear above thanks to speak check. Is that decent engagement on the flywheel? Obviously you can't see the pinion to ring gear gap.

I also re-clocked the bendix so it was about half way between block and exhaust pipe. The thought was maybe it would be down where it might cool better. Meant to get picture, but forgot.
That sure doesnt look like enough but I don't know for sure. I would think it would be engaged more.
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'63 k15 long step
Vortec 7.4 - L29 Blackbear tune, Five 0 Motorsports injectors, Chris Straub Cam, NV4500, divorced 205
52" front and 63" rear spring swap
D44 / 14bff - disc axles
Milemarker 9K and 10.5K hydraulic winches

63" & B52 Spring Install http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ng+swap+thread


NV4500 Reverse Build Thread http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=reverse+build

L29 - 7.4 Vortec Build http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...&highlight=L29
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:10 AM   #39
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

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It sounds like you're on your way to getting it figured out. TBH, I had never given the grounds much thought until I nearly burned my truck down a couple months ago. The battery ground to the engine was just slightly loose, engine kept hard cranking. Thought it was battery terminals. Cleaned them and same thing. Turned out that I didn't tighten the ground stud on the block and the starter was using the copper oil pressure line as the negative and going through the body. Had wires under the dash laying on the copper tubing that got so hot it melted the insulation off of the wires, my defroster ducting (and picking up a new ground path in the process) and producing a ton of smoke. I call that tuition. The truck now has more ground straps than the Denali and they are ALL tight! No issues since.
I didn't have anything that serious, but with first starter the battery terminal on the solenoid loosened up, internally I think, and the negative cable hour so hot I burnt the crap out of my finger when I went tiki check to check to see if it was tight. Replaced all battery cables then with the 4 gauge everyone seemed to say was fine. Glad yours turned out ok'ish!
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:11 AM   #40
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Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

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That sure doesnt look like enough but I don't know for sure. I would think it would be engaged more.
That's what I thought, but maybe with the starter motor spinning it'll pop out more.
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