The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network







Register or Log In To remove these advertisements.

Go Back   The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network > General Truck Forums > Engine & Drivetrain

Web 67-72chevytrucks.com


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-06-2017, 11:52 AM   #26
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetsidelarry View Post
DanSaco, maybe I missed something above so correct me if I did.

You're asking about converter lockup/unlock NOT kickdown (i.e. shifting from 4th down to 3rd), right?

First, my understanding is that cable adjustment doesn't control lockup. It IS critical, as others have noted and you may have known already, to proper control of the internal pressures and shifting.

Just to clarify, when you say "factory linkage bracket" are you referring to the linkage on the side of the carburetor? Forgive me if you already know but I ask because some people think the bracket holding the tv cable is what needs changing (from one of your posts: "Not 100%, I've adjusted it a couple times to try to get it as good as I can. I'm going to buy the aftermarket bracket to move the back end of it to try to make it better. But that's been in the back of my head too") but, in fact, it is the one on the side of the carb. the Edelbrock geometry isn't correct and you can't properly adjust the cable without fixing it.

I believe the Bowtie kit will require you to pull the pan to install a spring, mine did. Maybe they sell just the geometry corrector. other sources do

Don't know exactly what you did to test it when you hooked manifold vacuum to it but the way the vacuum switch operates is to unlock the converter when vacuum drops during rapid throttle application by breaking the electrical circuit to the converter.
the problem is with lockup/unlock. When I drive it it won't unlock, it shifts all the way up to fourth gear but stays stuck there, it makes a faint vibration and gets very hot very quickly. I don't know why not going into overdrive would create this condition, it seems like I should be able to just drive in fourth, but the transmission doesn't like it one bit. So, I became convinced that the TV cable adjustment is the culprit, or at least that I need to address it. Someone said that if the pressure isn't right then the tcc can't work. Couldn't find the bow tie overdrives part, still can't, so I bought an aftermarket throttle bracket kit that said it would also work with 700r4. Just spent an hour removing the factory bracket and attempting to install the new bracket, but it will not work with the tv cable. The included tab for the tv cable can't be bolted to the bracket because it interferes with the push button part. So
I'm back to square one. Bow tie overdrives has instructions to install their kit, but I couldn't find the kit anywhere. Their site leaves a little to be desired.
So are you telling me that the tv cable can be, or cannot be the problem?
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 12:12 PM   #27
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

one of us is confused and it quite likely is me.

first of all, lockup is separate thing from being in 4th gear. transmission should shift into 4th THEN the converter will lock up later UNLESS you've wired it directly.

are you saying it won't downshift from 4th? or it won't unlock the converter?

it sounds to me like you haven't bought geometry correcter, just the bracket that holds the throttle and tv cables.
__________________
Larry

Last edited by fleetsidelarry; 08-06-2017 at 12:32 PM.
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 12:25 PM   #28
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetsidelarry View Post
one of us is confused and it quite likely is me.

first of all, lockup is separate thing from being in 4th gear. transmission should shift into 4th THEN the converter will lock up later UNLESS you've wired it directly.

are you saying it won't downshift from 4th? or it won't unlock the converter?
It shifts through each gear all the way to fourth, but then it doesn't lock up, if that's the correct terminology. You don't feel it drop a few rpms like it should when it goes into od. And it gets hot fast.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 12:53 PM   #29
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

ok, so the it's lockup. 4th gear IS OD, lockup is on top of that (you still need something like this for the carb geometry http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...57301/10002/-1 )

I am not the expert here. I have done the lockup thing with 2 700r4s (my vehicles), both with carbs, one with a TCC kit (didn't really need), one by just rewiring, both with on-off switches. I couldn't quite follow what you did with rewiring. what sort of 4th gear pressure switch did you have, 1 prong or 2?
__________________
Larry
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 01:48 PM   #30
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetsidelarry View Post
ok, so the it's lockup. 4th gear IS OD, lockup is on top of that (you still need something like this for the carb geometry http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...57301/10002/-1 )

I am not the expert here. I have done the lockup thing with 2 700r4s (my vehicles), both with carbs, one with a TCC kit (didn't really need), one by just rewiring, both with on-off switches. I couldn't quite follow what you did with rewiring. what sort of 4th gear pressure switch did you have, 1 prong or 2?
2 prong. It's a kit from superior transmission.
That thing from Jegs, sounds like it is what I should have, but it doesn't look like it would address my geometry. My tv cable length is ok, within adjustability range. The problem is the carb attachment point is wider, further out toward fender so the cable is at an angle.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 02:25 PM   #31
Bigdav160
Registered User
 
Bigdav160's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Klein Texas
Posts: 2,666
Re: 700r4 lockup help

This well used picture shows proper TV geometry. It is essential to provide the proper clutch/band pressure increase while accelerating.



As mentioned above. Lock up converter is a different issue and is necessary to keep the transmission from overheating while in OD.

You need to fix both if you want the transmission to live a long life.
__________________
My Classics:
'72 K20 Suburban + '65 Dodge Town Wagon
'72 Corvette Roadster +'67 Corvette Roadster
'73 Z-28 Camaro
'63 Ford SWB Uni Pickup
'50 Ford Coupe
Bigdav160 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 02:41 PM   #32
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdav160 View Post
This well used picture shows proper TV geometry. It is essential to provide the proper clutch/band pressure increase while accelerating.



As mentioned above. Lock up converter is a different issue and is necessary to keep the transmission from overheating while in OD.

You need to fix both if you want the transmission to live a long life.
Well I'm stuck now until I can get a tv cable bracket. I emailed bow tie overdrives and I'll probably order one of those Jegs parts. When I jump power across the pressure switch, I hear a click, but only once. Once the tv is adjusted properly, what do I do next? Like I said, on las treat drive I had it into 4th overdrive one time, but then it went back to what it was doing before. Should I think about replacing the solenoid? Or the torque converter itself?
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 02:50 PM   #33
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

we're talking two different "geometries" here. you need solutions to both

I'm talking about the relationship between three points: the throttle cable attachment, the tv cable attachment, and the throttle plate centerline. this relationship determines not just how far the tv cable pulls from its pre-load setting to wide open but the rate at which it changes, which isn't constant and apparently is critical for proper pressure. it's like everybody says, a tv cable is more than just a kickdown cable. see the 1st diagram here: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...&postcount=329

bowtie overdrives take the process even further. I have one of their kits on one of my vehicles. on my truck, I just made modifications to the carb
(edelbrock 1406) side linkage to get the relationship shown in the diagram (accomplishing the same thing as the jegs part).

EDIT: Bigdav160 beat me to it, sorry

back to the lockup. If I understand, your lockup kit supplied a 2-post 4th gear oil pressure switch to which you connected 12 volts to one post and, what, grounded the other post? your original switch was 1 post?
__________________
Larry

Last edited by fleetsidelarry; 08-06-2017 at 02:56 PM.
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 03:00 PM   #34
67swb72klb
Registered User
 
67swb72klb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: livingston co.mi
Posts: 1,897
Re: 700r4 lockup help

Here is more on it...

SUBJECT: Proper installation of the throttle valve cable on after-market carburetors or fuel injections. This information applies to all 700R4, 4L60 and 200-4R transmissions. Throttle valve cable adjustment instructions, numbers 4, 5 and 6.
#1. The button that the cable hooks to at the carburetor or throttle body must have a 1 and 3/32-inch radius from the center of the throttle shaft to the center of the button the cable hooks to.

#2. Looking at the throttle shaft lever from the left side at idle position, 33% of the throttle lever total travel must be to the rear of the throttle shaft centerline. And at wide-open throttle, 67% to the front of the throttle shaft centerline. This will be about -inch to the rear and 1 inch to the front of the throttle shaft centerline.

#3. The throttle valve cable must be hooked up in this manner so the pressure will rise faster off idle and slow down at heavy throttle. If the pressure cable is pulled in a more even manner the pressure will be too low at light throttle. Failure to hook-up the throttle cable in this way will burn the three-four clutch pack up fast.

#4. The throttle valve cable controls transmission pressure. Adjusting this cable is the most important step when installing a 700R4, 4L60 or 200-4R transmission.

#5. The final step is to adjust the throttle valve cable. The cable must be adjusted so it is pulled fully out at wide-open throttle. To make sure disconnect the cable, hold the throttle wide open with your left hand, pull the cable fully out with your right hand and see if the cable end lines up with the button on the throttle lever. The cable should also be pulled out 3/8 to 1/2 of an inch at idle.
__________________
California 65 GTO---Texas 64 burb 283 ---Oklahoma 67 CST SWB BBW wood bed 327 2004r---New Mexico 72 k10 350 350 auto---Georga 72 short step project
67swb72klb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 03:07 PM   #35
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

DanSaco, try this: http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...57313/10002/-1
__________________
Larry
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 06:40 PM   #36
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
so should I buy the Jegs part? And use with my factory bracket? Or do I need the bowtie overdrive part instead? Or as well?
It sounds like the tv cable pressure could be my problem. Still not sure what is actually happening when I drive it and it gets hot. Idk If the tcc is sticking locked or unlocked, or maybe I'm not getting 4th. I just don't know. All I know is it doesn't feel right and it gets screaming hot fast. Idk if I have hurt anything or not. First time this happened I drove it a long way like that, not realizing it was getting hot. Blew out some seals, but the fluid never burnt. I replaced all the seals and fluid.
As for the question about the pressure switch, I installed it in the 4th gear pressure port, ran 12v to one terminal from a toggle switch, the other terminal goes over to the plug at the driver's side of tranny and goes to wire A. So presumably, when 4th gear pressure comes up, the switch closes and completes the circuit, and tells the tcc to lock. Or unlock, idk which is which to be honest.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 10:06 PM   #37
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

1st--don't drive it anymore 'til it's sorted out, and keep your fingers crossed
2nd--the first jegs part is for the geometry on the side of the edelbrock, the second one is for your problem with the cable alignment, you'll need both OR check out BTO's offerings. if you buy the jegs parts you won't need BTO's. I'm not recommending jegs over BTO (like I said, I have a BTO kit on one of my vehicles) just giving you an option. there are more
3rd--I'm not understanding your wiring, was that how the instructions said to do it? you say you feed switched-power to one post on the switch and the other post goes to pin A. where do you run the outside wire from pin A? to ground?
which pin did you get the power from? take a look at this link, I apparently used the single post (self grounding) switch, at least in the second transmission, cause I didn't use any kit in that one (disregard the brake switch and vacuum switch in the diagram, toggle-switched power feeds in thru pin A): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...11&postcount=2
__________________
Larry
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2017, 08:30 AM   #38
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Re: 700r4 lockup help

The first diagram made no sense to me, power goes from switch to A then to TCC, then to pressure switch and stops? I dont even know where the solenoid is, but if I did and it gets power from A like I think it does, then why would it go to the pressure switch?
I am running switched power to the two prong pressure switch I put in the 4th gear pressure port. Presumably when 4th shows pressure it completes the circuit and sends power to A.
The other wires at that plug are B and D. Read various things about what to do with them, I guess no one truly knows. I cut them and tied them together per one sources advice, that blew fuses. Untied them and put D to chassis ground, stopped blowing fuses and the lockup worked properly one time, then hung up again.
My tv cable being wrong could probably cause pressure issues making the pressure switch not work as intended, and failing to power the TCC, right?
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2017, 05:23 PM   #39
Bigdav160
Registered User
 
Bigdav160's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Klein Texas
Posts: 2,666
Re: 700r4 lockup help

Let me suggest you go here and download a copy of the service manual.

Identifying your transmission year is on page 1102.

If the transmission is from a '86 model pickup then the valve body wiring diagrams start on page 1166.

I hope that helps
__________________
My Classics:
'72 K20 Suburban + '65 Dodge Town Wagon
'72 Corvette Roadster +'67 Corvette Roadster
'73 Z-28 Camaro
'63 Ford SWB Uni Pickup
'50 Ford Coupe
Bigdav160 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 09:12 PM   #40
YoungPup1977
Registered User
 
YoungPup1977's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: INTHESHOP
Posts: 125
Re: 700r4 lockup help

what type of pressure switch did you put into the 4th gear pressure port ? NO ? NC ? Take a pic of your wiring at the VB please. (pan removed of course) also provide pic of the wiring into the case connector inside and out .... Thanks.
__________________
RANZTRANZ
1972 blazer 4x4 + 1972 blazer 2wd
1972 c10 Cheyenne super (red/white) swb 383/700R4
1972 c10 Cheyenne Super (Turq/white) swb big block
1967 Camaro ss/rs + 1999 Jaguar XJ8 vander LS swap
YoungPup1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 06:51 AM   #41
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungPup1977 View Post
what type of pressure switch did you put into the 4th gear pressure port ? NO ? NC ? Take a pic of your wiring at the VB please. (pan removed of course) also provide pic of the wiring into the case connector inside and out .... Thanks.
This is the initial kit I bought, with the included pressure switch. It should be a normally open switch, so pressure closes it to make the contact. I haven't touched anything inside the pan, other than to change the fluid, filter and gasket. Because I thought I could do this externally. I can get a picture of my external wiring at the plug tonight.http://superiortransmission.com/product/superior-k013/
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 06:53 AM   #42
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Also, I ordered the two correction parts from jegs yesterday day
Posted via Mobile Device[/QUOTE]
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:18 PM   #43
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanSaco View Post
This is the initial kit I bought, with the included pressure switch. It should be a normally open switch, so pressure closes it to make the contact. I haven't touched anything inside the pan, other than to change the fluid, filter and gasket. Because I thought I could do this externally. I can get a picture of my external wiring at the plug tonight.http://superiortransmission.com/product/superior-k013/
Posted via Mobile Device
but you did put the 2-prong switch in and wire it to 12v via pin A, so you have already done as much "internally" as anything else you'd have to do-"I am running switched power to the two prong pressure switch I put in the 4th gear pressure port. Presumably when 4th shows pressure it completes the circuit and sends power to A."

this confused me the other day, which was why I asked: "3rd--I'm not understanding your wiring, was that how the instructions said to do it? you say you feed switched-power to one post on the switch and the other post goes to pin A. where do you run the outside wire from pin A? to ground?
which pin did you get the power from?"
. The way I wire mine (which is what Clinebarger's diagram showed) power comes in from pin A externally from your switched 12v source, the other "prong" on the switch is to be grounded. Or, if your original switch was single prong, then it grounds internally to the valve body. that's the only difference between the 2-prong and 1 prong, at least in the Superior kit that Clinebarger was referring to in that link I posted that you didn't understand: ( "The first diagram made no sense to me, power goes from switch to A then to TCC, then to pressure switch and stops? I dont even know where the solenoid is, but if I did and it gets power from A like I think it does, then why would it go to the pressure switch?")
it completes the circuit because the single prong pressure switch grounds internally.

Finally, you don't mess with the solenoid, just the wiring to it.

--I just saw something which may explain my confusion, does your kit have an "externally" mounted pressure switch?
__________________
Larry
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:57 PM   #44
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
I removed a plug on the passenger side of the trans, and installed the pressure switch there, per Superior Transmissions instructions.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 05:18 PM   #45
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

I've been talking about the 4th gear pressure switch on the valve body.
sorry, that's all I've ever messed with and that was what Clinebarger's link was about.

I was looking at Monster Transmissions' external kit and their instructions which is similar to your Superior kit I guess. Theirs also has a plug with 2 wires that fits into the 4 pin plug on the driver's side for the power in and the ground (if needed). As you said, if you hear a "click" when you power up the A pin you're not supposed to have to use the ground.

http://www.monstertransmission.com/Tech-Info_ep_42.html look under 700r4 Lockup kit instructions
__________________
Larry
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 08:18 AM   #46
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

you said you heard a "click" when you first tried the electrical power. was that with the D pin grounded?
and
is your lockup switch lighted or wired thru a light so you can tell if the solenoid was working when you were driving?
why I ask is:
the rpm drop when the lockup happens is not much. on my truck with a basically stock 350 and 3.07 gears I can definitely hear the exhaust note change. but in a friend's equally loud truck with a 454 you couldn't, it just didn't affect the engine that much. maybe with your gearing the extra load when it locks/unlocks is not enough to sense
__________________
Larry

Last edited by fleetsidelarry; 08-10-2017 at 09:55 AM.
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 11:44 AM   #47
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetsidelarry View Post
you said you heard a "click" when you first tried the electrical power. was that with the D pin grounded?
and
is your lockup switch lighted or wired thru a light so you can tell if the solenoid was working when you were driving?
why I ask is:
the rpm drop when the lockup happens is not much. on my truck with a basically stock 350 and 3.07 gears I can definitely hear the exhaust note change. but in a friend's equally loud truck with a 454 you couldn't, it just didn't affect the engine that much. maybe with your gearing the extra load when it locks/unlocks is not enough to sense
The switch is lighted when it's turned on, not when the solenoid engages. The D pin is grounded to the chassis, B is cut off and not hooked up. When I jumped power to A I heard a click, but only once, I couldn't replicate it. Maybe has to be driven to disengage it?
With my gearing I can definitely feel when it is licking up or not.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 04:24 PM   #48
fleetsidelarry
Senior Car Nut
 
fleetsidelarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: shellman bluff, GA
Posts: 1,411
Re: 700r4 lockup help

once it's wired to pass thru the 4th gear pressure switch I'm sure you'll have to be driving for the solenoid to work. but, to do the "click" test you didn't

I like to understand better but couldn't find the instructions for your kit so I'm going to reference the Monster Transmissions "click" test. As far as I can tell their kit does exactly what yours does, it's just fancier (and more expensive, I'm sure).

Monster says to check first by applying power to the A pin without grounding the D pin. If you hear the click you have a functioning 1 wire solenoid (grounds itself) and don't need to do anything with D. If you didn't hear a click, try the test with the D pin grounded.

that sound like what you did?
--------------
Like you I have lighted switches for both of my 700r lockups and it just dawned on me after asking about whether your switch was lighted or you had wired a light into the circuit, that lighted switches don't tell you anything about what's going on except whether you have power to the switch. it will light up whether the solenoid or the pressure switch is working or not. to know, you'd have to wire a light into the circuit from the pressure switch to the A pin, right?
__________________
Larry
fleetsidelarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2017, 06:45 AM   #49
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Re: 700r4 lockup help

Yes, and yes. Got my Jegs brackets, as soon as I can get them installed I'll be test driving it again.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2017, 02:05 PM   #50
DanSaco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Raymond, NH
Posts: 35
Re: 700r4 lockup help

Installed the Jegs brackets, test drive it and I think it's working. I have adjusted the tv cable to the best of my ability after reading up on it. It still seem to shift hard and a little late, it doesn't seem to want to downshift under acceleration. It will downshift when you stop, so you can start off again in first, just when pulling hills I couldn't make it drop a gear unless I did it manually. And when I got home after a fifteen minute test drive the trans pan is smoking hot again.
Posted via Mobile Device
DanSaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1997-2013 67-72chevytrucks.com