The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network







Register or Log In To remove these advertisements.

Go Back   The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network > General Truck Forums > Engine & Drivetrain

Web 67-72chevytrucks.com


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-28-2017, 01:06 AM   #1
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Starter problems and now flex plate

Long story short....

I need a good starter for a 1974 330hp sbc 350 with 9:1 compression, maybe 10:1. On 2nd junk one from O'Reilly on fresh rebuild and it's eating my flex plate and starters. I'm not running headers, I'm on manifolds and trying to convert to ran horn manifolds soon. When engine hot current starters are slow to crank.

I was looking at mini torque starters, but have had a few people suggest starter from 2000 454 7.4l trucks. I've read to stay away from summit brand. What about powermaster 9100? It says not for use with high compression, I don't think even if I'm pushing 10:1, that's not considered high. What about timing curve....says for stock timing curve. I'm running 4 btc at chain and about 34 total. I'm guessing I'm still within stock specs.

Is there a better one to buy for a street motor?

Then a few teeth on flexplaye are getting worn down from the starters giving grief, so I'm questioning if I just replace it now. I'll try to post pic when I can crawl back under. I went ahead and bought a flex plate today from my machinist and had him balance it as my motor is externally balanced. For $60 figured might as well have on hand.

This is all going in my 1960 suburban. I believe my battery cables are 4 gauge, if not they might be 6gauge. I'll check tomorrow, so that shouldn't be causing any issues and everything is snug with good grounds. I'm also running HEI so don't need the R terminal.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 06:29 AM   #2
ImpalaJim
Registered User
 
ImpalaJim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kewanee IL
Posts: 238
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

I have a life time starter from oreilys its 9 years old! sounds to me a shim issue
ImpalaJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 08:20 AM   #3
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImpalaJim View Post
I have a life time starter from oreilys its 9 years old! sounds to me a shim issue
First starter, I took the shim gauge and determined it needed a single shim. All good stated perfectly with no noise for about 100 miles then started grinding badly. Pulled the shim and all was quiet for about a week then noise was bad again and then it wouldnt start at all. Like I said, it then overheated my cables and burnt the hell out of finger when I touched battery terminal. Turned out the batt cable post on starter wss loose.

Second starter, all good for a few hundred miles, then repeat the shimming issues. Then it just free spins when I crank. Difference is it passed their test, but teeth are wearing out on gear and my flex plate and a screw feel out of starter.

How can that be shimming issue? Maybe a heat issue is screwing with the solenoid....but I don't totally get that either as my understanding is generally it's headers that do that and I'm running manifolds. Both times the starter is still tight to the block, so it's not loose. I do think strange that when new, didn't matter with either starter off the motor was hot our child it would crank easier, but as a few miles was on them they would crank easy when cold, almost instantly, but after a while if hit it took a second or two.

The manifold on starter side is 2" ram horn with center dump and there is a fair distance between it and starter. Engine doesn't seem to ruin overtly hot either. Running factory gauge so no actual numbers, but I'm ordering an aftermarket one so I can see where I'm at. I've also wondered about exhaust leak, but nothing comes in through a couple of holes in firewall that I still need to patch that are in that area. I think one of them is about 1-1/2"-2" hole. The other is 3/4 that size.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 09:14 AM   #4
geezer#99
Registered User
 
geezer#99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bowser
Posts: 8,962
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Are you using a starter brace?
geezer#99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 12:23 PM   #5
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by geezer#99 View Post
Are you using a starter brace?
No, I haven't figured out which one to get. I have considered that as well...still didn't account for heat issues when starting.

Will the braces work with the mini starter? Or do they not need?
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 12:55 PM   #6
geezer#99
Registered User
 
geezer#99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bowser
Posts: 8,962
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

IIRc they don't work with a mini starter.

Let me tell you a little story about heat in starters.
I had a bb 1970 chevelle and my buddy had a bb 1969 camaro.
Same motor set up. Both stock cast iron manifolds and stock starters.
His would start anytime everytime. Mine wouldn't. Got hot, wouldn't start. All the time, every time.

Only cure I found was to wire in a ford solenoid.
We never did figure out why the difference.

What starter do you have?
geezer#99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 01:27 PM   #7
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Regarding the Ford solenoid, I have heard that works as well, but I've also been told and had it explained in detail that the starter solenoid has to still engage so no way that should really work. I had why it does explained as well, but don't recall details. Might have to do with the way the wires are removed from heat. Hmmm!

Without looking for my receipt, I think the once I have is the Ultima starter remanufactured...seems th be what they carry in stock.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 04:20 PM   #8
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Well, ordered a PowerMaster 9100 Mini Starter from Speedway. Hope that solves most of the issues I'm having. Wondering if I need a heat shield or even a shielded cable going to starter.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 04:27 PM   #9
rvrfoot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: san bernardino ca
Posts: 1,089
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

I have 66 c10 350 motor stock.Ram horns and a mini hitachi starter no problems.
Attached Images
 
rvrfoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 08:56 PM   #10
franken
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,029
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Slow cranking is due to not getting enough current through the big battery cables. The ground should go to the engine block, not the frame or a bracket. Replace the cables or look for hot spots. Make sure all connections are clean.
If that doesn't solve it order a starter for a 70 Vette with the LT1.
franken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2017, 09:42 PM   #11
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by franken View Post
Slow cranking is due to not getting enough current through the big battery cables. The ground should go to the engine block, not the frame or a bracket. Replace the cables or look for hot spots. Make sure all connections are clean.
If that doesn't solve it order a starter for a 70 Vette with the LT1.
No hot spots and the hot spots before I'm told were due to too small of cables. It only happens when engine is warm AND after starters have a few miles on them.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 08:00 PM   #12
PGSigns
Senior Member
 
PGSigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hayes Va
Posts: 3,384
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Few things to look at. First is what starter you are getting, the HD starter will have a spacer between the solunoid about 3/4" long. Next is the wiring from the key to the solenoid. The stock wiring a lot of times will not carry enough current to pull the solenoid in like it should. You will have the same issues you are having now. One way to ad power is to wire the solenoid is to wire a relay to drive the starter. #12 wire from the battery to power the relay and 12 to the starter. Trigger it with the wire from switch. What kind of 350 do you have that is externally balanced?
Jimmy
__________________
60 to 66 Chevy and GMC window decals
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=661131
Good friends, good food and a hotrod what else do you need?
1966 BBW long fleet Daily driver
1965 BBW short fleet Sold and going to a good home
1965 Suburban
2003 3500 Duramax
2005 Ultra Classic

Last edited by PGSigns; 07-29-2017 at 08:08 PM.
PGSigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 08:19 PM   #13
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGSigns View Post
Few things to look at. First is what starter you are getting, the HD starter will have a spacer between the solunoid about 3/4" long. Next is the wiring from the key to the solenoid. The stock wiring a lot of times will not carry enough current to pull the solenoid in like it should. You will have the same issues you are having now. One way to ad power is to wire the solenoid is to wire a relay to drive the starter. #12 wire from the battery to power the relay and 12 to the starter. Trigger it with the wire from switch. What kind of 350 do you have that is externally balanced?
Jimmy
I'll check my wiring, I thought I upped it in size, but I'll double check.

My 350 is an 87 model. I just did some research and it seems like in.85/86, they started externally balancing them, but they also say these are one piece rear main seal and I thought I had a two piece. Hmmmm....

My machinist looked back over notes and said it was externally balanced, now you have me wondering. What happens if it is internally and I balance the flex plate and the balancer?
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 08:23 PM   #14
franken
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,029
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Let's not introduce another component into a slow crank issue that doesn't need it.

What's the battery voltage when at rest and when cranking?
What's the voltage to ground from the starter when cranking?
What's the CCA rating of the battery?
Still wondering where the engine is grounded.

One thing to try is connect jumper cables from the battery + side to the starter +, and - side to the starter body. Might try those one at a time. If things improve, you have a connection or conductor size issue.
franken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 08:46 PM   #15
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Maybe I'm confusing terms on the engine balancing issue. He didn't add weights, he drilled some holes to take material out, he did stop me and ask when I called him regarding my engine and then said ok. The balancer also had to be replaced and if I'm not mistaken he removed some material there as well. Do I need to be concerned?

Back to the starter....

The positive cable goes to a junction block from 90s c1500. Then it goes to the starter. The ground is on the factory location for this motor, which is a bracket, but everything I've tested gives it good connection and I believe good ground. I'll try to upload some pics on while. I don't know voltages and can't get until I have a working starter. The battery is a 750cca starter.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 09:05 PM   #16
hjewell2
Registered User
 
hjewell2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: mich
Posts: 435
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Powermaster Mastertorque Starters 9612
hjewell2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 09:16 PM   #17
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Hers some pics...

One should be of battery cable routing....I forgot to add I have a battery shut off switch, it was incorporated mid life for 2nd starter and has a 1250 amp monetary rating and 200amp rating continuous rating.

Then a picture of the engine to frame ground and a pic, you'll have to look through wires towards rear of firewall, of the block to firewall ground.
Attached Images
   
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2017, 09:32 PM   #18
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Here's a better shot of the block to firewall ground and a shout if the flywheel installed on engine.
Attached Images
  
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 03:44 PM   #19
nonstop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Northern California
Posts: 341
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

First thing I can see is the ground for the battery cable. Is it up against raw or painted metal?

You may want to take this opportunity to upgrade battery cables as well. I like 2/0 if available, or at least get the biggest ones you can find at the parts stores.

General rule of thumb is you can't have too large of cables, especially ground.
nonstop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 04:13 PM   #20
'63GENIII
Senior Member
 
'63GENIII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Carlos, Ca.
Posts: 2,123
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonstop View Post
First thing I can see is the ground for the battery cable. Is it up against raw or painted metal?

You may want to take this opportunity to upgrade battery cables as well. I like 2/0 if available, or at least get the biggest ones you can find at the parts stores.

General rule of thumb is you can't have too large of cables, especially ground.
Agreed. I tend to avoid the parts store cables myself. They all seem to be #4 awg. I like to make my own using DLO or welding cable that is easily found at any welding supply. The WS will have all the necessary ends and the cables are not that hard to fab up. I picked up a 25' cut of #1 cable and have been using it on everything from the cars to my old Shovelhead. They withstand the heat, have low voltage drop under load and you can pump a TON more current through them than conventional low strand count parts store cable.

Grounds. Body to frame, engine to body, engine to battery. I probably have too many on the '63 after not tightening the main engine ground and having the starter ground back though the oil pressure line and almost setting the cab on fire. Tightened up the main and added a bunch more straps. Have to be tight and clean. Cant stress this enough.

For the starter I used a stock big block type with the cast iron nose, a brace and heat shield. The brace - you'd be surprised how much a starter can move when engaged. I was. Works great every time. Going on 7 or 8 years now. I used the same one for small blocks when I had them. Not sure of the brand but it wasnt O'Reillys. I always get them from my local indy parts guy. Better quality I think.

I did read somewhere on here that every time an engine is shut down, it shuts down in the same spot in the crank revolution. This means that when you go to start it, the first contact point will be in the same place every time. I think this also makes it crucial to have your starter (no matter which one you use) shimmed right to give the best chance at full engagement and less chance of wear in the ring gear. Just my .02 on this point.
__________________
Chris


'63 k15 long step
Vortec 7.4 - L29 Blackbear tune, Five 0 Motorsports injectors, Chris Straub Cam, NV4500, divorced 205
52" front and 63" rear spring swap
D44 / 14bff - disc axles
Milemarker 9K and 10.5K hydraulic winches

63" & B52 Spring Install http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ng+swap+thread


NV4500 Reverse Build Thread http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=reverse+build

L29 - 7.4 Vortec Build http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...&highlight=L29
'63GENIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2017, 06:59 PM   #21
PGSigns
Senior Member
 
PGSigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hayes Va
Posts: 3,384
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Ground cable to the motor would be better bolted right to the block or head. Get rid of the lug and battery switch and run a 1 piece cable from the battery to the starter. Put a heavy duty starter on it. That little wire from the key to the starter is as important as anything else. If it has a voltage drop or has low current the rest is not going to help. On you one piece rear main motor the ballancer is neutral ballanced and due to the round crank end the flex plate will have weight on it. So its part internal and part external ballanced compared to the 400 small block.
Jimmy
__________________
60 to 66 Chevy and GMC window decals
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=661131
Good friends, good food and a hotrod what else do you need?
1966 BBW long fleet Daily driver
1965 BBW short fleet Sold and going to a good home
1965 Suburban
2003 3500 Duramax
2005 Ultra Classic
PGSigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 10:32 PM   #22
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonstop View Post
First thing I can see is the ground for the battery cable. Is it up against raw or painted metal?

You may want to take this opportunity to upgrade battery cables as well. I like 2/0 if available, or at least get the biggest ones you can find at the parts stores.

General rule of thumb is you can't have too large of cables, especially ground.
Those were the biggest they had. I forget the size, was thinking 4 or better, but what are you thinking? I'm not running anything but motor and lights at this point.

All grounds are to bare metal with die-electric grease on the connection to keep corrosion out. I took the drimmel and ground paint off everywhere a cable went.

I added the positive terminal block because there were too many connections at the starter. When the first one failed it failed at that spot and I said forget that and took everything else off the starter. I don't have many circuits but in future I'll add stuff back and I want a good place to do this.

I believe the A wire is at least 12 gauge all the way, but I'll double check it.

Last edited by MASTERBrian; 07-31-2017 at 10:40 PM.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2017, 10:43 PM   #23
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

I got my new starter today and it's a powermaster. Seems to be made by Hitachi. Interesting thing is the instructions seem to say to run a ford solenoid, BUT wired different than I thought they were wiring them. Battery cable to solenoid then off same lug to starter. The starter wire then goes to the s on the Ford solenoid then off the other large lug to starter.

I'll call their tech tomorrow.
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2017, 03:32 AM   #24
Ironangel
Senior Member
 
Ironangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Falls City,Nebraska
Posts: 1,331
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

Quit jacking around and ground that battery to the motor like it should be! Those rinky dink strap grounds are for lighting and low current voltage only. The mating surfaces of the starter as well as the block have to be clean and flat, no paint or grease. The starter bolts themselves must be a dedicated starter bolt with knurling. You have get under there with that starter sometimes and measure the clearance of the bendix gear on the flexplate ring gear. Use a paper clip to set the gap between teeth, and use shims or half shims to get the correct clearance. You can speculate and complicate till the cows come home but if that starter dont get full battery current nothing you put under there is going to work! http://www.delcoremy.com/Support/Ser...ruction-Sheets
__________________
Michael Hill, "Ghostrider"
1980 KZ-1000 ST-MKII, "Baby Doll"
72 Chevy C/10 SS-396 w/Comp Cam=268H, Closed Chamber 290 heads, Stage-4 Power Pack (Eagle Red's) 350THM, Beefed up 12-Bolt, Eaton 4:56 Posi, (Diesel Killer) Street Rod LWB "Nasty Sally"
72 Chevy C/10 Rebuilt 350 w/Voodoo-10120701 Cam, Stage-4 350THM, Beefed up 12-Bolt 3:73 Eaton Posi, LWB Wood Bed, (Daily driver, work horse) "Belle"
https://www.facebook.com/michael.hill.12979
https://www.facebook.com/kz1000rider/
Ironangel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2017, 09:26 AM   #25
MASTERBrian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Wichita
Posts: 548
Re: Starter problems and now flex plate

I have the correct bolts, took several trips to different parts stores and finally found another member that had some stock in them. All surfaces are clean. On previous starters, I checked gap and shimmed accordingly. The only ground strap that might be too small is engine to frame, it's larger than picture shows though. I've been trying to locate larger diameter ones, but haven't find locally, but at end of day I have nothing grounding to frame at this point.

Maybe I'll look at changing the battery to block location, but that was/is factory location. All the other straps are more than what was on this to start with.

I know I'll sound like being difficult saying this, but lots say bigger battery cables, bigger battery cables.....Why does a 6 circuit 57 year old truck need heavier duty battery cables than my 14yr old suburban that has lights everywhere, quad heated seats, power everything, factory stereo with amp, etc?
MASTERBrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1997-2013 67-72chevytrucks.com