Trip To China

[Coley]

...I just got back from a business trip from China and it was pretty interesting.
Like most business trips...it wasn't filled with a great deal of local or cultural 'flavor'....this is not uncommon tho' as far as business trips go.
I always think that the average hotel room is the same pretty much around the world.

Regardless...from a business/manufacturing (and engineering) point of view, these guys can perform.
I was at a manufacturing operation in Ningbo, about 3-4 hrs outside of Shanghai.
....its interesting the 'scale' of stuff going on there.
Their primary manufacturing building was 1 km (2/3+) of a mile long and a 1/3 km (1/4 mile?) wide.
They had about 20+ bays available for individual projects...each one about 33,000 ft2....lol....they rented the residual parts of the building out to different manufacturers.
Regardless, their work....when pressed and required, was serious top notch.
An American company that I know of and was on site at the time, currently gets all of their roller coaster structures built there.....yep, roller coasters.
I won't give out the name, thats not important...but the level of quality, checking and precision was all there.....every inch was NDT'd....at least two or three times by several different bodies.
The idea that 'everything' from China is crap, is simply incorrect. The real truth is that in China, like everywhere...you get what you pay (and manage) for. So if you require very high standards and have your paperwork requirements in order ....then they will meet that need. If you are 'tin-potting' with a couple of simplified, 'econo' drawings done by your nephew...then, you get what you paid for.
The good news is that it gets more expensive every month to build stuff there because the chinese 'middle class' is in full momentum...so their wages are going up substantially every year.
Anyone else with recent experiences in China?

....the temps by the way were a disaster for a Canadian....39° Celcius, which I think is something like 105° fahrenheit.....and their welders weren't fazed by this at all.....damn, I was soaked, lol.
all good
Coley

[dieseldawg142]

well, not to be an arse, but i would love for you to show me something made in china that is'nt crap.
my conceptions of chinese crap are not theory's, gut feelings or something i heard on the net, they come strait from having to deal with chinese crap.
everything, and i mean everything that has ended up in my hands from china has been utter garbage, wether it's parts for our vehicles (4 crappy headlight relays for wife's truck for one...), parts for the house, tools, heck, even dog toys. have got TONS of chinese crap broken or screwed right out of the box before i have ever used it.
wife and i go out of our way to not buy chinese garbage, we are more than willing to pay double to have it made anywhere but china...and china has no one to thank but themselves for foisting garbage products on the world for the last 20 yrs.
even when you buy American branded products from china, pretty much garbage....American racing wheels ....made in china, pure crap, the chrome falls off the center caps just looking at it....3rd set of centers already (this is quality??)


not that their rims or chrome plating on steel is any better....this is after less than 6 months...


now compare that to TWENTY YR OLD American eagles (made in America)on my stepper...


or the 12 yr old Eagles (also made in America) on my crew...


these are just but 1 small sample of chinese "quality" that i've had to deal with
china and quality are a complete oxymoron

[Coley]

....good point Diesel, and I would, for the better part agree with you....at least as it relates to 'consumer products'.
I'm talking more on an industrial level here rather than a consumer level.
The consumer in our public society...is always looking for a deal and today they find it
easily at Walmart, Harbor Freight, Costco, etc...
It is also showing up in the bigger brands now too and I think that they have headed to China in order to be more competitive in their marketplaces....I guess.
The thing to look for in the consumer market place are the products that usually are the more expensive ones (unfortunately)...and then you will often find the 'made in America' quality...unfortunately most people can't of don't want to pay the bill for these....Fair enough....I'm not too much different most of the time.

On the industrial level stuff...the (industrial) manufacturing costs are about 1/2 of what they are in N.America. That varies a lot....more on this side of the pond than that side for similar quality.

The main point is that they will build to whatever level you want...but you will have to pay for it and more importantly do the homework and the paperwork on the safety, quality levels and expectations that are required.
I think what 'gets and grabs' business people is the Chinese market the low price of making something first to the new potential customer....then the N.american sales/management has a hard time letting go of that and assumes it will be the same quality or as high as what they think.
In the consumer market place tho'....there is only so much room to escalate a price and most people will simply then shop next door for something that looks similar for 1/2 or 2/3 of the quality item.

Its interesting stuff tho'....

One thing about it is that it gets more expensive every month there for everything, labor, housing, etc....which means the prices of doing business there goes up all the time.
That is good news for N.American companies working to compete....because its probably just a matter of time before some of that comes back to these shores....that could be many years or?...who knows.

The people that I dealt with were saying that it isn't uncommon to have to increase 'professional grade' pay (engineers, techs, PM's, accounting, etc) by about 10% a year....sometimes more, so this too has an impact relative to the project costs.


All good
Coley

[truckster]

Unfortunately, even if you're willing to pay more for quality and want to buy American it's often hard to find those products these days.

['63GENIII]

IIRC, the main tower for the new Oakland Bay Bridge was build in China. There were quality issues. There were also problems with the US made imbed bolts that secure the tower. 50% US - 50% China. 0% chance I will ever feel safe driving on it.

When I hear of a company going to China for a product, it is usually for financial savings.

Ive never heard of anyone going to China to get a higher quality product.

FWIW, I have seen a few quality products roll out of China. They are usually as expensive as something made here. So it is possible. I just don't think that quality is the foremost thought that is given to their exports.

FWIW, it will forever rub me the wrong way that we buy so much from them and have virtually abdicated the crown for high quality production of goods on a large scale.

I cringe every time I hear that we are having them build military parts for us.

I would agree that if one wanted to pay China more for a quality product, that they would produce one, but at what point does it become more cost effective to pay someone here to make the same thing? Given that we still have the ability to build anymore.

[68C15]

Originally Posted by '63GENIII

When I hear of a company going to China for a product, it is usually for financial savings.

Ive never heard of anyone going to China to get a higher quality product.

From what I have seen this nails it. But one must go a little deeper to understand why. The American company (in general) sees a higher profit margin by having stuff made over there. The final consumer cost may be similar due to tariffs but the company makes more money.


I bought some chrome steel wheels for my 68. In less than 6 months they were rusting. Meanwhile the 40+ year old bumper still looked like new.

[FleetsidePaul]

Some exports from China are really well built

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by FleetsidePaul

Some exports from China are really well built

True but the upkeep will kill ya!

[cypressbog]

Originally Posted by dieseldawg142

these are just but 1 small sample of chinese "quality" that i've had to deal with

While I do agree with you that you showed some great examples of poor plating from the Chinese manufacturers and I would be plenty pissed off had that happened to my investment, I do note you compared chrome China wheels to USA aluminum wheels.

[In The Ten Ring]

My Chinese SKS is holding up very well....

*Just being the devil's advocate here.

There is no competing price wise with China, quality though, that can be competed with.

[dieseldawg142]

Originally Posted by cypressbog

While I do agree with you that you showed some great examples of poor plating from the Chinese manufacturers and I would be plenty pissed off had that happened to my investment, I do note you compared chrome China wheels to USA aluminum wheels.

of course ! chinese alum wheels might last 36 seconds or so. then they'd melt or be out of round in a couple miles.
here's my 10 yr old steel Welds and 13 yr old steel Cragars-yup, look waaay finer than that chinese junk. never had a speck of rust on them-ever


we get a lot of china junk up here. we don't have nearly the buying power, nor the selection of the states, so were flooded with a lot of 3rd world knock-offs. my buddy's boss who is a manager of a major parts store chain here, actually went to some brake rotor factory in china. Safety was right out the window, as was quality control. He saw steel being contaminated all thru the casting process. he did not buy their rotors, even though they were about $60 cheaper- each.....
you will have a hard time convincing me about china and quality, i just got too much junk and headaches from their stuff to keep chancing my money on it...
and here's another example of chinese "engineering" Bought this cheap 8 buck clock for the camper when were camping couple weeks ago. ya, i don't expect a lot for $8 bucks, but i do expect it to at least work
put a battery in it and know what it did?
nothing, not a dam thing. so now i have to waste another $10 in fuel in my 454 crew going back to wally-world (and my time...) for a frikkin cheap-ass $8 clock that cant tell time.... or just suck up the loss
sad thing is, pretty much guarentee it won't be the last time either


just gotta love how they prominentley display a Canadian or American flag, or tout how "Canadian" or "American" they are.... till ya flip it over-fabrique en china

[alsriv2]

Its sad that it has become the way it is due to corporate greed and many other factors. Those very plants and the workers in those plants used to be what we had here in our country before someone decided to change our culture from a world class manufacturing economy into a consumer economy. As we lost jobs, our folks needed less cost goods to be able to survive. Now we are where we are...in trouble.
I am glad to hear some other country is doing well and the workers wages are rapidly increasing. But remember, it used to be us that was in that position.

[jeffahart]

Let me explain. China produces mostly CRAP! Full blown Crap! Gawd awful crap and every variation of crap in between. Quality is absolutely the exception and not the norm. Last time someone tried to send me to China I said, "Is it to see the great wall?" No... then No. Last time someone tried to send me to India, I said "is it to visit a guru to contemplate life on a mountain top?" No... then no. I had to quit that job. I'm stupid, I stick to my guns. You can send my work over there, but you can't make me go over there! They can piss off!

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by jeffahart

Let me explain. China produces mostly CRAP! Full blown Crap! Gawd awful crap and every variation of crap in between. Quality is absolutely the exception and not the norm. Last time someone tried to send me to China I said, "Is it to see the great wall?" No... then No. Last time someone tried to send me to India, I said "is it to visit a guru to contemplate life on a mountain top?" No... then no. I had to quit that job. I'm stupid, I stick to my guns. You can send my work over there, but you can't make me go over there! They can piss off!

Whoa, whoa, whoa Jeff. If it weren't for China, we wouldn't have Pro Comp heads and Scat or Eagle stroker kits right?

Just messing with ya. I swear they are trying to kill us though. Either with the melamine tainted baby and animal food or subpar auto parts like spindles, brake pads or wheels. Hell, MSG has been around for years and we still keep buying the crap that they send.

[jeffahart]

My China boycott... Not!

The China situation, in the past, had been quite a conundrum for me. Back in 2001 I was pissed off over the situation with our spy plane and decided it was the last straw for me, in regards to how China treats the United States. So I decided to boycott China . Here's how that went. I took my family to visit my grandparents that summer, and begin my harsh punish against China. We stayed in a nice hotel, kind of a resort hotel. I told my son of about six years old, that he cold get a souvenir as long as it was not made in China. I $hit you not, there was not one thing in that store not made in China. Now, there was candy chips, soft drinks and some sundries like tooth paste, nothing a boy would want. But I started looking at that stuff skeptically too. So, right there my boycott ended... an exercise in futility and self punishment is all it turned out to be.


China ain't going nowhere, they're now too tightly integrated into our batch processes(by way of cost).... BUMMER!


.

[Axle]

I think some of you guys are missing OP's point. American Racing, Cosmo clock, they want to pay cheap for parts and charge you American pricing. They are not going to China and paying for the quality You and I expect of American Racing, and you get American Racing wheels and centers that corrode quickly. If American Racing was willing to put a few more bucks into quality specs and quality control the product would be better.

[Coley]

Well, let's face it.
If we had to pay the same 'equivalent' price for most stuff....everything from TV's to electrical drills or lawnmowers, that our fathers had to pay back in the 50's and 60's....most would be crying in their beers.
We have all pretty much gotten used to inexpensive stuff and the reason for that is a lot of it comes from out of country.
This includes most of the crate engines that guys get pretty excited about.

If you want a kick, pick up an old mechanix illustrated book from the early-mid 60's and check out pricing on some of these items.
If you convert the price into 'modern' dollars you will probably poop your pants.
A color TV in the mid 60's was $500....in mid 60's dollars!!, thats probably over $3000 or more in todays bucks....no wonder households just had one TV, if they were lucky.
An electric drill was $30 (in todays $$, probably $300+), a small table saw was $80-$100 (in todays, probably $1000+).....and these weren't 'high end' tools, relatively average but American made.
That is why our fathers (grandfathers?) probably took good care of their stuff I suppose.
Plus that is also why there was a complete 'handyman' field/career option of repairing this stuff back then. It was too expensive to just throw away if it needed brushes, or repairs, etc.
Today if your flatscreen TV packs it in.....just drop it off at recycling and grab another one on the way home. Same goes for the rechargeable drills.....when the battery dies down, these get chucked in a hurry and simply replaced.

Regardless, we live in interesting times......and in certain way, spoiled times when it comes to consumer goods.

All Good
Coley

[WyattTX]

Originally Posted by In The Ten Ring

My Chinese SKS is holding up very well....

*Just being the devil's advocate here.

There is no competing price wise with China, quality though, that can be competed with.

The AKs they made were every bit as good as the Russian ones. Due to banned imports, they can fetch prices higher than $2000. I miss the days of $80 SKS's, and $200 AKs. They literally gave you a lot of bang for the buck.

To adress the subject of all other Chinese products, There is good, and bad quality stuff (just like any other country.) The only reason I feel self conscious about buying chinese (I do it often, unfortunately.) is that I am contributing to our nations job loss, and helping a militarily strong communist nation get richer.

[dieseldawg142]

i am facing it Coley
after putting up with china stuff for so long, i will and do pay more (much more) to get a better product whenever we can. ya, we still have to buy chinese junk cause corps and govs shipped our jobs over there and their the only ones making it now.
and yeah, we did pay alot more back then, but you answered your own question, it lasted, and it was fixable. still using my made in usa craftsman tools from the '70's and '80's, have NEVER seen any chinese tool from the '70's or '80's, let alone ones that look and perform like new....
it's not just corporations that have stuff made cheap in china for a better bottom line, strait up chinese goods are no better.
i buy chinese super glue at the store, cause it's all they got. dont need something hugely expensive, i just use it to build models, but i do have to buy 10 or 20 tubes at a time cause half of them are already hard, or on there way, not opened, not used and chucking them away, right off the bat. might as well throw my money right down the toilet....
no, it's not the paying more or less money thing, it's the total inconveince of NEW things that DO NOT work, having to go back to the stores and the hassle and waste of my time and money dealing with cheap, defective, chinese "products"
that really ticks me off...

would you rather buy a orig sq fender with a dent or 2, or buy an off-shore fender? think it's pretty obvious...

[jeffahart]

Originally Posted by dieseldawg142

i am facing it Coley
after putting up with china stuff for so long, i will and do pay more (much more) to get a better product whenever we can. ya, we still have to buy chinese junk cause corps and govs shipped our jobs over there and their the only ones making it now.
and yeah, we did pay alot more back then, but you answered your own question, it lasted, and it was fixable. still using my made in usa craftsman tools from the '70's and '80's, have NEVER seen any chinese tool from the '70's or '80's, let alone ones that look and perform like new....
it's not just corporations that have stuff made cheap in china for a better bottom line, strait up chinese goods are no better.
i buy chinese super glue at the store, cause it's all they got. dont need something hugely expensive, i just use it to build models, but i do have to buy 10 or 20 tubes at a time cause half of them are already hard, or on there way, not opened, not used and chucking them away, right off the bat. might as well throw my money right down the toilet....
no, it's not the paying more or less money thing, it's the total inconveince of NEW things that DO NOT work, having to go back to the stores and the hassle and waste of my time and money dealing with cheap, defective, chinese "products"
that really ticks me off...

would you rather buy a orig sq fender with a dent or 2, or buy an off-shore fender? think it's pretty obvious...

Attachment 1690968

I still use my hein werner I got from my dad for Christmas back in the 70s never been rebuilt and it's get the crap used out of it to this day. And I have a Craftsman digitok from 1980, still true when tested, gets the crap used out of it.

Here's the real problem with the entrenched China process. It's now even a cottage business for soccer moms. And this is why there's is no on going quality control because big companies do the same thing. So here's the soccer mom sample.

They research a product to sell... let's say a makeup brush. Then they get a batch made in china. They look at the bushes in the box and say woopie! Really cheep! I can make some money here. Then they order a whole bunch... but, the next batches are sent straight to the Amazon fulfillment centers. And they never touch or look at another make up brush, they could care less... ehhh haw... I just sold thirty makeup brushes today on Amazon and my rating is a bunch of yellow stars... whoopie.... eeeh haw! Look at me!

Now here's the quality control part. Here it comes... wow I'm getting enough returns and bad reviews on those makeup brushes that "I'm not making money", guess I better buy one of my own brushes and have it shipped to my house(not manufacturing facility) and look at it.

And there it is... The Amazon China pump... pumping crap into our homes daily!

BUMMER!