'67 Alignment issues after '74 Disk brake swap

[Sheetaki]

So I've got a '67 C20 that I swapped a set of '74 spindles onto. I thought I'd done my research and that all I needed was '74 balljoints and I'd be good to go. Turns out that was pretty close, but I ended up reaming out the tie rod hole and using my old '67 tie rods, and I can't get the dang truck aligned anymore. The shop did their best and I've got .94 Deg caster left and 1.4 deg caster right. Steering the truck is even harder now (no PS) and it doesn't center itself anymore. I like how the brakes feel, but driving the truck SUCKS. A buddy of mine suggested that I may be able to get away with swapping a '73-87 upper control arm on, but otherwise I'd have to swap the whole front clip off the later model truck.

Anyone done this swap and dealt with the alignment issue? This truck's whole thing is function over form (she's ugly), so she needs to drive well!

[WIDESIDE72]

Imo it would have been a better idea to swap the whole front crossmember. Sorry to rub salt in the wound. That is the only way i have ever done it. Sorry i dont have any advice to fix your problem.

[LockDoc]

with WIDESIDE. Complete cross member swap is all I have ever done. I don't know how hard it is with the engine in the truck because I always pull the front clip and engine to do it.

Maybe some of the the guys that have done the parts swap will chime in and give you some pointers....

Just my 2¢ worth.

LockDoc

[trac209]

So the 74 spindles were off a 3/4 right?

[midniteblues]

the later year disc brake center steering links are differnt than the 67-70.
you'll need too swap the steering assembley from the 74 too the 67 too get a accurate alignment.
swapping the whole cm wouldve been easier.
what did you do about the brake lines and master cly?

theres alot of threads on this very subject.

[Sheetaki]

Yeah, I feel like I read a thread that had done just the ball-joints and thought to myself "that seems a lot simpler! Lets do that!" To that poster's credit, that part was correct, the '74 balljoints did fit perfectly in the '67 control arms....
I used a master cylinder and booster from the '74 and remade all new hard lines (mine were rusted out badly)
The spindles were definitely off a 3/4-ton, I'm using the same wheels and that all works fine.
In terms of swapping the cross-member, as I've already got the '74 spindles adapted to fit the '67 tie rod ends, and Toe aligned just fine, I may as well use the spindles I've got (they're already cleaned and painted) and just swap the cross-member and control arms, right? I am planning an engine swap anyways, so I'll try and have a cross-member ready for when I do that.
I was mostly curious to see if anyone had done just the upper control arm and had it work. Seeing as how alignments (shims!!) are ~$150, I think I'll just go with the one I know will work.

[airdale94]

You don't have to swap the x-member. The only advantage that gives you is the updated engine mounts. And the 67-72 can be adapted easy enough. The upper control arms are the same (basically) but the lowers are disc brake exclusive. They have different turn stops. midnightblues is right the center link is different and as you found out the tierod ends. As far as caster what's your shim stacks look like. You should be able to just put more in.

[kxmotox247]

Any updates? Photos of how many shims you have in place?

[boostedc10]

I'm with airdale on this one. Take a pic of your shim stacks left and right.

[Sheetaki]

http://imgur.com/R3zzJ2J.jpg
So according to the notes there's not much left to do with the shims. You guys are saying to add shims? This shop seems to know their stuff, I think I may just get a crossmember and control arms so it's more stock.

[boostedc10]

Based on the numbers and the note on the bottom I don't see a reason they can't add shims to the front of the control arm to get the caster in spec? You have room to move even on the camber side.

[boostedc10]

Originally Posted by midniteblues

the later year disc brake center steering links are differnt than the 67-70.
you'll need too swap the steering assembley from the 74 too the 67 too get a accurate alignment.
swapping the whole cm wouldve been easier.
what did you do about the brake lines and master cly?

theres alot of threads on this very subject.

Midniteblues the draglink should only affect the toe (which is in spec based on the sheet he posted)if anything and maybe steering effort if the geometry is completely different which may be the case since i havent looked at the two in years.

[airdale94]

The x-member is not necessary, the lowers are disc brake exclusive (turn stops for the disc brake spindle) the uppers are basically the same, neither will put your caster in spec. boostedc10 is right you just need to shim the front. I can't imagine why they diddn't know this the machine after you do your measurements will tell you exactly what shims to remove and add in what places. I'd take it back to them. You should be able to get at least an inch of shims, if needed on that control arm.

[Sheetaki]

Based on what you guys are saying, maybe I need to go have a chat with them. I made sure to let the alignment tech know before he started that it was '67 arms and a '74 spindle. Maybe they took the shims out to get the camber in spec? He said the caster won't wear the tires, whereas the camber will. Is my sacrifice driveability vs tire wear? I'll talk to them in the next couple days and see what they say. If that's the case I'll swap crossmembers and arms so I can get an oem setup, and not have to make a compromise.
Thanks for all the advice guys.

[boostedc10]

You don't have to compromise anything with your current setup. I am telling you right now I could align that truck in spec without changing any parts, period.

[Sheetaki]

Pity you're in Detroit, I'd take you up on that in a heartbeat. I'd love it if I don't have to swap the crossmember and control arms. I'll talk to them, the trick is how can I get them to take another shot at it without charging me more?
"So these guys on the internet told me....."

[boostedc10]

Ya i hear ya, but i wouldn't approach it the internet way.

I would questions why they couldn't get the caster in spec and why they removed all of the shims.

Understand this about your suspension before approaching them, adding equal shims to the upper control arm will increase camber, if you add shims to the front you of the control arm the caster becomes more positive (which is what you need). Adding shims to the rear only the caster will go negative. One thing to keep in mind though is how many shims are added, if to many are in a single point, camber can then be affected.

Any new Hunter machine will tell them where to put the shims and the newest ones tell you how many.

Knowledge is power!

[HEADTURNINGC10]

Could any one tell me what all i would need to do to swap the front crossmembers i have a 69 c10 with drums all around. I bought a 85 frame with drop spindles drop springs and disk brakes in the front. What is the difficulty of doing this conversion, would i need the steering box off the 85? ALSO IF ANY ONE HAS PICTURES THATD HELP TO

[boostedc10]

Originally Posted by HEADTURNINGC10

Could any one tell me what all i would need to do to swap the front crossmembers i have a 69 c10 with drums all around. I bought a 85 frame with drop spindles drop springs and disk brakes in the front. What is the difficulty of doing this conversion, would i need the steering box off the 85? ALSO IF ANY ONE HAS PICTURES THATD HELP TO

HEADTURNINGC10 this thread should help you out:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=236411

[airdale94]

You can just lift/supoprt the engine and just roll your new setup assembled underneath. You will have to drill a couple new holes for the crossmember but the rest will line up. It's best to swap all the steering items unless you allready have power steering. Search for crossmember, disc brake swap and you should come up with pretty well documented speciffics with pictures.

[boostedc10]

Opps I thought he just wanted to do the brake side of it. Oh well airdale is right, there are a ton of write ups on doing this. I think for the 67-72 trucks you only have to elongate a few holes to get the crossmember in.

[BMERDOC]

The notes on your alignment sheet says that it has no shims in the right side but "two slim shims" in the left side. I'm not sure how they installed the shims (one front, one rear or both on front so on so forth). If there is NO shims on the right side and thin shims on the right then there is plenty of room to align it. I'm on board and will help how ever I can. They have a Hunter machine so I wonder if it has the "Match using Cross spec" option.

[HEADTURNINGC10]

Ok cool thank y'all ill look at that thread

[Sheetaki]

Originally Posted by boostedc10

Ya i hear ya, but i wouldn't approach it the internet way.

I would questions why they couldn't get the caster in spec and why they removed all of the shims.

Understand this about your suspension before approaching them, adding equal shims to the upper control arm will increase camber, if you add shims to the front you of the control arm the caster becomes more positive (which is what you need). Adding shims to the rear only the caster will go negative. One thing to keep in mind though is how many shims are added, if to many are in a single point, camber can then be affected.

Any new Hunter machine will tell them where to put the shims and the newest ones tell you how many.

Knowledge is power!

Thanks for this. I've got the '67 Chevy service manual, I'll take a look at it tonight. If I can show them something nice and official looking that says basically what you just did, I should be able to get them to give me at least a discount, or possibly a free re-alignment. The more official-looking knowledge I can present them with, the better.

[Boog]

Originally Posted by Sheetaki

Based on what you guys are saying, maybe I need to go have a chat with them.
He said the caster won't wear the tires, whereas the camber will.

That's not right. Too much/too little caster will wear the tires outside and or inside edges as will too much/too little camber.
By your post alignment statement saying the truck steers harder than before and it doesn't return to center like it should tells us they didn't get it right.
We'll have to assume they ruled out worn or bent components during their inspection?
These old trucks can still drive pretty good even without power assist.