Caddy 500... ya I know

[swindle8704]

I went to the junkyard last week and picked up a 500/TH400 out of a 76 Deville to put in my 65 C-10. I've got wait a couple of weeks at least before I can spend the money on the proper oil pan, but as soon as I get one I will be starting and definitely posting pictures.

[1972RedNeck]

This 472 is in my brothers '70 Ford (its the best running Ford I've ever been in). It's out of a '71. He got an adapter plate to bolt a 700R4 behind it. It cruises at 2400 RPM with 4.11's. The only thing with comparable power is a common rail cummins.

[Arekusu]

Haha.. wow this thread took off! I found a 454 for 1000.00 and can't really say no to that.. so the caddy is still on the brain but the chevy is going to end up being cheaper as it's already rebuilt and less fab.. (just for me anyway) I'd still like to see swap pics as anything big block is way cool. I hope the posts on this thread are helpfully to someone.. later!

Alex

[rickpilgrim]

First I will tell everyone I have done Cad 472 and 500 conversions in GM trucks. Go to www.webshots.com and search out rickpilgrim in rides or truck pics. I have many pictures there of our 82 GMC and the 93 Chevy Dually (before the bodywork) when they were Caddy powered.
This will cause headaches for me here but I will say it anyhow. For the money NO 8.1L or 7.4L Chevy BB can out torque the Cad. My brothers 2007 Duramax was close, but was .6 sec and 3mph slower than the 93 in the same hr of the same day with equal load. The 511 Cad would do 5 wheel burnouts in 4lo on dry pavement and 4 wheel 30' stripes in 2H The only reason it is still not in there however is that fuel here is $3.97 and we were getting 6-7 mpg, in all fairness though everyone who drove it liked to exploit the power and the 800EPS was almost always on 4bbl mode when accelerating.
Marty at MTS is the man to talk to about Cad power. A Cad 500 is about $2800 to rebuild with premium parts, another grand or so for porting of heads and making headers, I found Performer intake for $25 at Iola, HEI is same as Chevy, you can make over 500HP with a Q-jet, Eldorado oil pan and pickup was $20 @ boneyard and with the MTS cam I was making 527.3 HP @4500 and 628.7 ft lbs @2400 and over 520 ft lbs from 1500 to 4800 rpm. I had $4120 into doing the conversion and rebuilding and even my machinest said he could not do a BB Chevy with that much low end and reconfigure from 6.5 diesel for that amount of money.
As far as fab work as I have TH400 and 4l80E I used a $59 TCI adapter plate, and took 2 pieces of 3/8" plate 4"x7 1/2" and drilled holes to bolt to the frame and 2 holes for the 71-76 Eldorado mounts. I had to adapt radiator hoses so I used flexable universal hoses. I had to extend some wires, shorten others and make exhaust to fit but that was it.
You really don't need to do all the hotrod stuff I did. If you keep it below 4500 rpm just replace the valve springs (use sb chevy springs), give it a good tuneup and use a 1973 and newer(low compression) engine and enjoy the smooth quiet rush of power these engines provide with the same fuel economy as a BB chevy and in some cases better. You don't need the deep gears, the big Cad likes to cruise at 2100-2400 rpm so gear accordingly.
When you pull in to fuel up and check oil the WOW factor is hard to beat. nuff said

http://community.webshots.com/user/rickpilgrim

[manimal]

THAT is very nice! So on the '82 did you have to do anything with the pich seam on the firewall? And for the 3/8" plate,you just bolted it to the engine perches and driled for the engine mounts?-so it moved the engine forward? Sorry for all the lame questions,but I really dig the caddy engine and would like to do that to my truck-73 C30

[67_SS396]

In stock form, they have a lot of torque, but are dogs at the track. We stuffed a 500 in an 87 IROC and added a little juice for fun six years ago. No juice, a TH400, 2.73's and a 10.5" slick, it ran 11.71 in the 1/8. We started out with 100 shot and ended with a 275 shot with a best of 7.23 in the 1/8. It made over 10 passes with that much juice on a bone stock engine and last I heard, the new owner hasn't dropped it any. They are some stout engines.
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[jimbonice]

I love the spark plug access these things look like they have. No feeding plugs into blind holes, plus the distributor is on the right end.

[rickpilgrim]

Originally Posted by manimal

THAT is very nice! So on the '82 did you have to do anything with the pich seam on the firewall? And for the 3/8" plate,you just bolted it to the engine perches and driled for the engine mounts?-so it moved the engine forward? Sorry for all the lame questions,but I really dig the caddy engine and would like to do that to my truck-73 C30

Yes, on the 82 I did fold over the pinchweld on the drivers side and gave it a few wacks with a 3 pound hammer fora bit more room.
The mount plates- I removed the diesel frame mounts from the truck, and bolted those plates to the frame. The Cad Eldorado factory mount, when bolted to the engine has a 1/2" stud and a "pin" on the face. I drilled 2 5/8" holes in the plate for this. The 93 and 82 plates are the same, the 93 I had to clearance them a bit more. You can see it on my oics.
The Cad motors prior to 1971 were good performers to about 4400 rpm.after that you got into valve float. If you change the valve springs that gets you to about 5000 rpm, after that you have cast iron connecting rod issues. This all assumes good fuel, as I found out with the 1968 Eldo motor in the 82 you can't get at the pump. These pre 71 engines are 10.5/1 compression and like 38 degrees of ign total timing by 2800 rpm or so. That means VP race gas, if you try to run 93 octane you either get severe detonation or ign timing so retarded that it runs hot.
Then emmision controls took over from 72 on, the compression came down to 8/1 or so, but to comply with emmisions the intake valve timing is retarded around 6 degrees or so. That was great for emmisions but you are maybe getting 65% VE at this point(nitrous helps here) or about 250hp or so. GM also reconfigured the intake manifold that it was 2" lower than my 68 manifold.
I used a Lunati 213/219@ .050 to straighten the valve timing out. When we were playing around on my machinests engine dyno just the Performer intake was worth 35hp at 3800 rpm, the cam added 85 hp by 4100 rpm. Recurving the ign was around 40 more hp and that brought out the connecting rod problem.you have to deck the block a bit to run the Olds 455 forged rod, but it works. Use small block chevy vavle springs, big block chevy 2.19/1.88 valves. If you are ruunning above 4500 rpm regularily ditch the stock pedestals and get a shaft system from MTS. I could write a small book on the 3 yrs I spent doing this..............

[manimal]

Thank you for the info rickpilgrim.

[CSGAS]

The Eldo mounts sound far simpler than the solutions I've gotten into. I told Areksu about my favorite, using older mopar V8 mounts and engine brackets cut down with 2 washers on the drivers side as spacers which gives a cleaner look than the Eldos should but does take much more fab work. Another way is flathead (or "universal" per Speedway motors" biscuits on tubular mounts.

I may have to make an excuse to try the Eldo solution sometime soon.

[rickpilgrim]

What I was told by MTS was to use thier MT 01 mount which is used on the very last yr 368 Eldo and RWD cars. Paul called it the Eldo mount and that's the name I stuck with. I liked it as first- I was in the wrecking yard and they had a mid 70's 2wd chevy frame with a 425 Cad in it. It was by far the most simple way to mount and second and very important riquired no cutting/welding and was a bolt in, so I could change back as needed. I had Doubts on the strength at first but we TWISTED off the coupler between the 4L80E and the T-case and nothing with the mounts was affected. They are not very astetic but fit the bill for me.
It is not the early Eldo front U shaped saddle mount or anything like that so- Here is the link for the mount

http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t...D-style/Detail

I still have 2 sets of plates, I may sell or make a pattern if anyone wants PM if interested

[manimal]

I would be very interested in a pattern for a 1973. Thanks

[85raiderburban]

Didnt want to wake this thread up, but for those who run across this thread with the idea of doing this swap, the amount of misinformation needs to be addressed.

Originally Posted by stich626

heres the thing..
the catty makes tons of low end.. and it's built for that as it had to tow around a landyuat..
you can make big power with it.. and it's not cheap..

The 472 and 500s are the cheapest bang for the buck when it comes to power. This has been proven multiple times over. And this is coming from a pontiac guy (me)

Originally Posted by stich626

the 500 with big power was a 10.5 to one engine the later ones don't have the same power.. running a 10.5 to 1 catty on todays fuel..
you will be retarding the timing..
or changing the cam. for one that runs in an rpm that those heads and cast lower end doesn't like.

Typical bull**** spewing coming from the typical bowtie guy. The 68-70 472, was also 10:1 compression. I know multiple guys who TOW 5k travel trailers with their devilles and el dorados on 91 premium
pump gas. No they didnt retard the timing or change the cam. You seem to forget the caddy block casting is not completely IRON, they were made with high percentage of NICKEL content, which helps to dissipate heat quicker and eliminates detonation. Again the caddy make sall it power at 3k, that means it does NOT need to be overrevved like a chevy.

Originally Posted by stich626

if you want a 450 ft lb engine that has 400 of it off idle the cad is the way to go..

10:1 engines referenced above both make 550 lb ft of torque or more at 3k

Originally Posted by stich626

but a 454 with peanut ports will do the same...
to give you an idea..
my 454 8.7 to one is 445hp and 524ft lb
will run on 87 all day..

Spewing pure lies to make a smogger boat anchor sound fast?
This is comical. peanut port heads are like tbi swirl ports = GARBAGE. That's why everyone swaps them for 781s, the vastly superior 088s, or the Vortec L29 heads. I would need to seea dyno sheet proving what your claiming. No 8:1 engine makes anywhere near close to that amount of horse or torque with out some type of power adder. GET REAL. Again no one cares about your slug running on camel whizz. The 10:1 cadillacs will run on 91 pump with out issues.

Originally Posted by stich626

your say'n the 454 is gonna cost more.. not after you figure in all the fab'n parts to make the catty 472/500 work

The only fab work needed to put a cadillac in a chevy truck is:
1. bolt 7x6 steel plates to the mount perches
2. re-use the cadillac block mounts to drilled holes in steel plates (1 on each side) THATS IT. Took me 15 minutes to cut, drill and prep.

The advantages outweigh the originality:
1. Lighter front end (cadillac V8 580 lbs vs chevy bb 700 lbs)
2. more power
3. better gas mileage
4. better convenience of the spark plugs,distributor, intake and oil filter

Originally Posted by rickpilgrim

For the money NO 8.1L or 7.4L Chevy BB can out torque the Cad.

#FACTS

[YoungPup1977]

This makes me laugh, comparing a caddy engine to a Big block chevy engine....happy to see there are still caddy die hards left in this world....each engine has its pro's and con's....just sayin, no debate needed....this is funny Sh**..... I don't think I am putting a caddy engine in any of my chevy trucks or blazers.....but if anyone chooses to do so please stray clearcoat over the entire vehicle and call it CADTINA.....

[Tom]

Originally Posted by 85raiderburban

No 8:1 engine makes anywhere near close to that amount of horse or torque with out some type of power adder. GET REAL.

Your sure do like to talk in absolutes, which everyone knows is how to spot the guy who doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. Yes, 8.7:1 [thats closer to 9:1 then 8:1 fyi] compression engines can make that much power. Its been done over and over threw the years.

[85raiderburban]

Originally Posted by Tom

Your sure do like to talk in absolutes, which everyone knows is how to spot the guy who doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. Yes, 8.7:1 [thats closer to 9:1 then 8:1 fyi] compression engines can make that much power. Its been done over and over threw the years.

I'm have that right to talk absolutes because I have experience.
I had a 781 (oval) headed 454 in my suburban, came out of an RV. that slug had no more torque than my L31 I had in my 97 suburban and got 9 mpg all day long. Those peanut ports are not 9:1 compression from the factory like your implying I had a guy I sold 088 502 HO heads to, because his peanuts were such slugs. He did the swap and raised compression instantly. Unless the banned mr know it all had those peanuts milled, he did not have 500+ lb ft torque. Its ironic how the bowtie guys are always first to act like they know it all.