Pics from our fire - REPLACE YOUR CHEAP SURGE PROTECTOR!

[67_C-30]

As many here know, our house burned on the 4th of May. The cause of the fire was determined to be a overheated surge protector that started in my computer room/office. We had the regular Wal Mart/K Mart $15 surge protectors that most people have, and we've had them for years. After the fire, the adjuster, the contractors, the electrician and even the Serve Pro guys told how many house fires are caused by these things. The electrician told me if you look inside them, you'll clearly see they are barely sufficient (he said they are truly insuffient, but they are considered legally sufficient) for the amount of plugs they have. I am very thankful we weren't there, and that no one was hurt. There are better, more expensive available, and I'd urge anyone to invest in them. We lost all all of the contents and the firemen said if they were 5 mins later we would lost the whole house. We lost all of our normal household belongings like clothes all the kid's toys, pictures, furniture, etc, etc, etc. I lost a bunch of car/truck parts, my guitars, and pretty much all my collectables that were in the room. It was pretty much my man cave, and I had new '72 truck door panels, a Vintage Air A/C system, new Custom Auto Sound stereo I bought on here, lots of my Camaro and GTO parts, A '72 Gibson Les Paul Black Beauty, A '78 Fender Strat, Marshall Amp, all of my baseball/football cards and racing collectibles and die cast and model cars among other things. Its very depressing - but again, my family is OK, so I'm good. We'll just focus on the positives and move on. They are gutting the house and are going to rebuild. We love our house, and even though everybody says "you;ll have all new stuff" or "it will be like new" I know it will lose some of the character that we loved about it. We did come to find out it is a WELL BUILT house. It has true roughcut 4" X 4" on the outer walls, true 4" X 10" floor joices, and true 2" X 6" rafters. There was 1" X 12" tougue and groove planks behind all the drywall, which is amazing to me. Here's some pics after the fire, and some of the demo.













This fan was 3 rooms down the hall from from the rooms that burned.

[67_C-30]

Here's some pics of demolition. Serve Pro came in put in machine to draw the moisure out of the floors, and thankfully they are going to be able to save them. This house has beautiful heart pine floors.


























It was heartbreaking hauling the kid's toys to construction dumpster.


This was my restored diesel tach dash cluster for my '67 C-30.

[El Jay]

That is a real tragedy. But, as you said, thankfully nobody got hurt. Somebody was looking over you that day.

Was anybody home when it started?

[Ron 586]

Praise God your family is alright. That is a mess and you have a big job getting it shipo shape again. I am truly sorry for your loss.

[gixxerpymp]

I'm very sorry to see this. This is one of my biggest fears.

[special-K]

I didn`t know about your fire.Man,I`m so sorry to hear it.Makes you wonder about all UL listings.What a crock! I know you`re glad it was only stuff you lost.But,I also know the "everything is replaceable" phrase isn`t always true.You had some precious things that you were proudly preserving.A dang fire can wipe all that out quick.I don`t know what I`d do.I hardly own a thing that isn`t precious to me and you can only prevent fire to a point.It`s the luck of the draw.Or in your case,the bad luck of buying a BS product that made someone rich while your stuff got burnt.

[Otsa580]

My house burnt down when I was in 6th grade. We lost everything. Its hard but it will get better. Just keep looking forward!

[GOPAPA]

What a shame to lose the things that mean so much to you and I agree even new will not be the same.

Glad none of your family was hurt ..thanks for the info on the surge protector ,,and with the firemens claims for sure will I take a look at mine for what brand it is.

just curious about what you posted on the lumber sizes of the old rough cuts used in your house ..did you mean full 2x4 studs in the outer walls and not full 4x4's? I just never heard of 4x4' before and this would be a first for me..

from your post above

It has true roughcut 4" X 4" on the outer walls, true 4" X 10" floor joices, and true 2" X 6" rafters. There was 1" X 12" tougue and groove planks behind all the drywall, which is amazing to me.

Gp here and not trying to pick on ya ..LOL just curious..

[rambler]

thanks for posting this, I've been meaning to replace my surge protectors anyway, but to protect the computer, as I think that is what helped fry the first one I had...

[72freak]

I had not heard.....that is terrable!!!! Atleast everyone is OK!!!
Sorry for your loss...let me know if you need any help moving stuff around.

[screwballl]

First and foremost, sorry to hear about your loss and situation. I will be praying for you.

(sorry for the long post)

As a long time computer tech I hear about these types of things all the time. Having a father with almost 30 years at a power plant plus fire department allows me to see and hear the stories of what is possible.

There can be several causes:

First the age of the house, if it was built from 1990 or older, then it likely has 12 or 14 gauge wire (or smaller in rare cases if the builder went cheap) instead of the suggested 10 gauge, which over the span of the entire house means it can be spread thin. Get a high powered draw on it like microwave, several computers, cheap surge protector, stereo equipment, big (tube style) TVs and so on, it can cause all sorts of problems.
My house was built around 1980 so this is why I have mostly switched to lower draw LCD screens (TVs and computer monitors), more efficient power supplies in the computers and $40-60 surge protectors and battery backup. With 3 computers, 3 monitors, decent 5.1 speaker system, printer and the usual small items, I have measured the total power draw is just under 400W which is well within the old wiring capability. I have seen spikes just over 500W when I do some gaming where the video card, power supply and speakers are working harder but that is still within the maximum 800W max draw for the house wiring (14ga wires) in this room to the junction box.

Second, many times they are actually just a power strip, not a full surge protector. In those cases putting too much power can result anything from tripping the internal breaker on half decent units to causing the fire as seen from the original poster. Cheap units that also label themselves as a "surge protector" may be nothing more than just have an internal breaker that is supposed to trip if too much power (over 15A) tries to get in or is being drawn through it. If that breaker fails to do its job then we see the situation as seen in the original post. Stick with quality names, and ALWAYS look for a "Joule rating". The higher the joules the better the protection, but at minimum try to stay over 2000 Jouels per computer. 3 computers = 6000 joules.
Some quality names: APC, Belkin, Tripp-lite, CyberPower, Fellowes

It may help to spend $70-80 on a small battery backup unit, not for the battery protection but they also tend to have voltage monitoring, so if the computer tries to draw too much it will limit the power itself to prevent it from overloading. Also if the voltage drops or spikes, it will cut external power and use battery power until it returns to normal, many times just a few seconds. I usually hear mine beeping at minimum once a day from spikes or drops. Here is the UPC unit I have on my main system and modem/router: APC BE650G (650VA, 390W). This is only suggested for one computer due to the 390W limit. If you have a high powered gaming computer or want multiple computers on one APC unit, then it would help to get at least a 600W or better unit.

Third, if you are making some home improvements or building an addition for a home office, speak with the electrician and ask him to only use 10 gauge wire in this room and all the way to the junction box on its own 30A breaker. Also having one or more GFCI outlets on the first outlet in the series for that room can help reduce the chance for problems as well. This means you would have 30A protection at the breaker, 15 or 20A at the GFCI (usually 15A for that outlet or 20A for other draw down the line from it), and usually 15A from the surge protector.

In the case of the original poster, I might suggest 10 ga. wire to each room from the breakers, then 12 ga for the outlets, lights, and so on, except the computer room, insist on sticking with 10ga all around that room top to bottom. Some electricians may say that 12 or 14 ga is sufficient, but with my father working for almost 30 years at a power plant AND volunteer fire department, he has seen what electrician recommendations can do (same result as original poster). With more and more electric reliant devices out there, loading up a single outlet with cell phone charger, printer, wireless home phone, electric razor, may seem no big deal but 1A here and 4A there can start adding up quickly and pass the 15A rating.


Wow typed up a lot more than I expected.... as long as it helps a few people I am happy. I am looking for some exact distance and numbers for the various gauge wires but can't find my little black book... may edit and report back later.

[VA72C10]

Sorry for your loss. This is the first I heard of it. Glad everyone is safe though. Are they reimbursing you for everything lost fully?

[markeb01]

67 C-30, very sorry about your disaster, and thank you for sharing so the rest of us can learn from the experience. Screwballl, thanks for posting all that information. This is a subject I never really considered, and now I will.

Reminds me of a tip I heard about clothes dryer fires a few years ago. For those that use fabric softener dryer sheets, you should wash the removable filter every month or so in soap and water. The film residue from the fabric softener builds up on the screen to the point the screen will hold water - and block airflow. It's easy enough to demonstrate, run water on the filter and see if it retains water. Wash the filter and see that afterward the water just falls through.

[Sub-versive]

Sorry to hear about your loss and situation. I will be praying for you.
Most important, nobody was hurt.
We lost 90% of our worldly possessions in a storage unit fire. Thankfully it was not our house. We did not have insurance to cover our loss, so it took some time to recover.

I am a licensed electrician in the state of Oregon I was licensed in Washington for a whaile also, been in the trade 20 years, 15 with the IBEW. I have worked many years in residential and many years on commercial and industrial, including a couple of powerplants.
I have worked on many burn jobs and feel the need to respond to this, again no disrepect to the OP, and again, I'm very sorry for your loss and situation.

Originally Posted by screwballl

First and foremost, sorry to hear about your loss and situation. I will be praying for you.

(sorry for the long post)

As a long time computer tech I hear about these types of things all the time. Having a father with almost 30 years at a power plant plus fire department allows me to see and hear the stories of what is possible.

There can be several causes:

First the age of the house, if it was built from 1990 or older, then it likely has 12 or 14 gauge wire (or smaller in rare cases if the builder went cheap)In all my years I have NEVER seen a house wired in smaller than 14AWG. The first wiring done in the early 1900's was 12guage knob and tube, even later jute covered wiring was at least 14 AWG for current carrying conductors, though a few years they did use cable with a reduced size ground(when ground wire was first used)
instead of the suggested 10 gauge, which over the span of the entire house means it can be spread thin.
14AWG and 12AWG is what is commonly used, it is the NFPA 70(National Fire Protection Agency) or also known as the NEC(National Electrical Code), required wiring for most receptacle circuits, when installed properly and not overloaded, is sufficient.
They problem most people run into is builders skating by with code required minimums. In today's world of electronic/powered everything, it is often not quite enough. Proper installation of dedicated circuits, and installing more than the code required minimum circuits, you will not ever have an issue if you don't overload the receptacle or circuit.

The other big issue that I have witnessed is the stab-in receptacles. I have personally witnessed these being the cause of a fire. I have worked many burn jobs, when the cause was electrical these were often the start-combined with overloading.

Example:
14AWG wire------------[A]------------[B]---------------[C]-----------[D]

The receptacles a,b,c, and d are stab-in, and fed thru the receptacles, non pigtailed(unfortunately VERY common and is done this way alot of residential wiring)

The lady of the house had a floor lamp plugged into receptacle A, and she plugged in a space heater into receptacle D. A baby crib was in front of receptacle C, after some time she smelled something funny, and suddenly the smoke detector went off.
Receptacle C had started melting and caught the paper face of the wall board on fire. Fire was called out, investigation showed the wiring was stabbed into the receptacle and was being fed through the thin, little metal tabs inside the receptacle. The thermal cycles opened the gap between thin metal tabs and wires, causing arcing and heating, leading to the literal meltdown. There is no way to predict when and where such a failure may occur, why not in receptacle A or B? The
Thankfully no one was injured and the newborn was in a bassinet in the living room at the time.




Proper pigtailing and use of screw terminals with more contact area may have prevented the fire. Personally I prefer using "spec grade" receptacles with a screw clamp type of contact. The added benifit of these, the actual receptacle to plug connection is of better quality also.



Get a high powered draw on it like microwave, several computers, cheap surge protector, stereo equipment, big (tube style) TVs and so on, it can cause all sorts of problems.
Again overloading is the real issue here.

My house was built around 1980 so this is why I have mostly switched to lower draw LCD screens (TVs and computer monitors), more efficient power supplies in the computers and $40-60 surge protectors and battery backup. With 3 computers, 3 monitors, decent 5.1 speaker system, printer and the usual small items, I have measured the total power draw is just under 400W which is well within the old wiring capability. I have seen spikes just over 500W when I do some gaming where the video card, power supply and speakers are working harder but that is still within the maximum 800W max draw for the house wiring (14ga wires) in this room to the junction box.
Incorrect. Not trying to start an argument, but also don't want this to mislead people. 14AWG (American Wire Guage) wire is rated for max of 15 amperes. The max recommended usage is 80%.
15 x 80% = 12 amps
P=IE Ohm's Law Power=AmpsxVolts
12 x 120 (volts) = 1440 watts per receptacle cicuit
It should be noted this is the MAXIMUM continuous usage for the circuit.

12AWG is 20 amps
20 x 80% =16 amps
16 x 120 = 1920 watts

Second, many times they are actually just a power strip, not a full surge protector. In those cases putting too much power can result anything from tripping the internal breaker on half decent units to causing the fire as seen from the original poster. Cheap units that also label themselves as a "surge protector" may be nothing more than just have an internal breaker that is supposed to trip if too much power (over 15A) tries to get in or is being drawn through it. If that breaker fails to do its job then we see the situation as seen in the original post. Stick with quality names, and ALWAYS look for a "Joule rating". The higher the joules the better the protection, but at minimum try to stay over 2000 Jouels per computer. 3 computers = 6000 joules.
Some quality names: APC, Belkin, Tripp-lite, CyberPower, Fellowes
Agreed. Too often folks cheap out on this.

It may help to spend $70-80 on a small battery backup unit, not for the battery protection but they also tend to have voltage monitoring, so if the computer tries to draw too much it will limit the power itself to prevent it from overloading. Also if the voltage drops or spikes, it will cut external power and use battery power until it returns to normal, many times just a few seconds. I usually hear mine beeping at minimum once a day from spikes or drops. Here is the UPC unit I have on my main system and modem/router: APC BE650G (650VA, 390W). This is only suggested for one computer due to the 390W limit. If you have a high powered gaming computer or want multiple computers on one APC unit, then it would help to get at least a 600W or better unit.

Third, if you are making some home improvements or building an addition for a home office, speak with the electrician and ask him to only use 10 gauge wire in this room and all the way to the junction box on its own 30A breaker. Also having one or more GFCI outlets on the first outlet in the series for that room can help reduce the chance for problems as well. This means you would have 30A protection at the breaker, 15 or 20A at the GFCI (usually 15A for that outlet or 20A for other draw down the line from it), and usually 15A from the surge protector.
You would still have to pigtail to 12AWG or 14AWG at the receptacles, most receptacles available cannot accept 10AWG wire. You could wire most in 10AWG and pigtail in 12AWG with the circuit on a 20Amp breaker and it would still be legal.

In the case of the original poster, I might suggest 10 ga. wire to each room from the breakers, then 12 ga for the outlets, lights, and so on, except the computer room, insist on sticking with 10ga all around that room top to bottom. Some electricians may say that 12 or 14 ga is sufficient, but with my father working for almost 30 years at a power plant AND volunteer fire department, he has seen what electrician recommendations can do (same result as original poster). With more and more electric reliant devices out there, loading up a single outlet with cell phone charger, printer, wireless home phone, electric razor, may seem no big deal but 1A here and 4A there can start adding up quickly and pass the 15A rating.

It is up to the individual to spend the added cost of such a method, the other issue you run into is box fill. You can easily overload a box by using 10AWG in standard residential boxes. An inspector will shoot you down quick. An overfilled box can cause some of the same issues your good intention is trying to prevent.

Wow typed up a lot more than I expected.... as long as it helps a few people I am happy. I am looking for some exact distance and numbers for the various gauge wires but can't find my little black book... may edit and report back later.

I do not wish this info to mislead anyone into a false sense of security or cause panic in everyone else's house wiring, but it needs to be said. The same type of tiny little metal strips in plug strips are the same type found in most cheaper residential receptacles. The same type of care should be used with your regular receptacles.
I have seen posts about welder wiring also, just because you have been lucky using the 10 or 8AWG wire up to this point, instead of 4AWG, doesn't mean it won't catch up to you at some point.
DO NOT OVERLOAD YOUR WIRING!!!

[fun in dirt]

Man so sorry for your loss. Glad y'all are alright.
I do alot of building safety inspections here at work. And overloaded & mis-use of powerstrips are the #1 problem around here. I'll use these pics to show some people why we "worry them" about it all the time.

[Jerry Jones]

Wow! that is awful, sorry for your loss, glad you are ok, and good luck on the rebuilding.

BTW, thanks for the heads up on the power strips, I install computer systems with a PC and 4 21" monitors and I use 1500VA UPS's. Cheap insurance.

[67_C-30]

Thanks guys. It is going to a long process! I'm not really an emotional guy, but I would find stuff the kids made for us or stuff they colored, and it makes you want to cry. I was standing in the house the night of the fire, and I got the sudden realization that the clothes we were wearing was the only thing we had. I still catch myself saying I have things that I don't have anymore. I friend of mine was talking about some 8 track tapes he found recently, and I started naming all the ones I had, and I suddenly stopped and said "Well, I HAD those." That keeps happening to me, and you really stop and think about what you've lost. I hope none of you ever have to go through it.

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by GOPAPA

What a shame to lose the things that mean so much to you and I agree even new will not be the same.

Glad none of your family was hurt ..thanks for the info on the surge protector ,,and with the firemens claims for sure will I take a look at mine for what brand it is.

just curious about what you posted on the lumber sizes of the old rough cuts used in your house ..did you mean full 2x4 studs in the outer walls and not full 4x4's? I just never heard of 4x4' before and this would be a first for me..

from your post above

It has true roughcut 4" X 4" on the outer walls, true 4" X 10" floor joices, and true 2" X 6" rafters. There was 1" X 12" tougue and groove planks behind all the drywall, which is amazing to me.

Gp here and not trying to pick on ya ..LOL just curious..

No, they are actually true 4 X 4's.

If you look at the halls pics here, you can see several of them. They measure a true 4" X 4" , instead of 3 1/2" that modern 4" lumber actually measures.






They're are some true 2 X 4's in some in-between areas, but all the corners, around all of the doors and around all of the windows they used 4 X 4's. In this pic, you can see what I mean. The corners, door, and window is cased in with the 4x4's and there are 2x4's in between.

[67_C-30]

Originally Posted by fun in dirt

Man so sorry for your loss. Glad y'all are alright.
I do alot of building safety inspections here at work. And overloaded & mis-use of powerstrips are the #1 problem around here. I'll use these pics to show some people why we "worry them" about it all the time.

Feel free. Most people just have no idea they are mis-using or overloading them. The computer, modem and printer was the only thing I had on mine, but I've read older strips like I had could have experienced a surge in the past, and you would have no way of knowing it was damaged without going inside.

[oldblue1968chevy]

wow! glad no one was hurt im sorry to hear you lost so much...so the house IS salvageable?,,,

[72BlckButy]

This is the first I've heard about the fire... and I am glad to hear that no one was injured.

Keep us posted on your progress and let us know if you need anything.

[screwballl]

Originally Posted by Sub-versive

Incorrect. Not trying to start an argument, but also don't want this to mislead people. 14AWG (American Wire Guage) wire is rated for max of 15 amperes. The max recommended usage is 80%.
15 x 80% = 12 amps
P=IE Ohm's Law Power=AmpsxVolts
12 x 120 (volts) = 1440 watts per receptacle cicuit
It should be noted this is the MAXIMUM continuous usage for the circuit.

12AWG is 20 amps
20 x 80% =16 amps
16 x 120 = 1920 watts

Thanks for the info Sub.... I was trying to find the numbers and was thinking 800W was close to it, I knew I was a bit low, my apologies.

Also the mention about wire size, there have been houses in my area that were thrown together quickly around 1978-83 where a whole block of them built by one company was found to have 16 ga throughout much of the house.

In the early 90s a contractor that was doing an addition found the 16 gauge on an outside outlet. He asked the homeowner if he could open a few more outlets to see if it was the case elsewhere too, and it was. There was a small class action lawsuit in the mid 90s that was not widely publicized so most of the affected houses still have that same 16 ga wiring.

I read about it a few months ago and checked over 12 outlets in my house which was built in that same timeframe. Our house has 14 ga throughout (for the 110VAC outlets and ceiling fans). I also used a meter to find out how much is being drawn at the various outlets and so far the 1100W microwave is one of the major draws when in use. Otherwise everything else including the fridge is 500W or lower.

[LONGHAIR]

Originally Posted by 67_C-30

I friend of mine was talking about some 8 track tapes he found recently, and I started naming all the ones I had, and I suddenly stopped and said "Well, I HAD those." That keeps happening to me, and you really stop and think about what you've lost. I hope none of you ever have to go through it.

My situation was not nearly as severe as yours, it happened at work. We had a shop fire in a very large cabinet shop. There was one interior "fire door" that did actually deploy and seperate the two halves of the building....but it wasn't much good. The stuff on the "wet" side was just destroyed by a different method. My work area (and tools) was nearest the back door. The most intense area was about 20 feet from mine and that door was like a chimney. Nothing of mine was actually burnt, as in "on fire", but 80% if it was melted by the rushing heat.
Luckily for us as employees, the bosses were insured very well. We got a very fair pay-out for our personal belongings, but like you said, so many things are lost. Our fire was nearly 2 years ago and it still comes up that something is missing. Most of us kept notes, drawings, jigs for specific opertions, etc. and all of that stuff is just gone. There is just no way for an insurance company to quantify that kind of thing and you forget about it until you need it.

Rebuilding and replacing is an adventure in and of itself. Embrace it for what it is......the begining of new memories.

[68C15]

sorry for your loss, I kind of understand your situation. where I worked in 94 had an overnight fire. farm-n-fleet type of retail store. clean up was not fun.

forgive me if I sound untactful. what is the possibility of installing sprinkler system during the rebuild?
if and when I build a new house it will have one. fire scares the crap outta me.

[LONGHAIR]

Sprinklers are great for saving lives...but your stuff is just as destroyed by the water as it is the fire.