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Old 05-16-2013, 09:29 PM   #1
Critter
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200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

The 200-4r in the 72 c10 in my sig doesn't like to go into the forward gears. I can start the truck and put it in reverse, no problem, the trans clunks into gear just like it should. When I put the truck into "D" or any of the forward gear positions it just sits there for a while. I can rev it a little and eventually (10-30 seconds) it will go into 1st and drive completely normal. I could drive it all afternoon and it would shift up and down in stop and go conditions just like it is supposed to. But if I were to stop and put it back into park, I have to start the whole process over again. It doesn't feel like any sort of slippage like when clutches are bad, its feels more like fluid isn't being pumped where it needs to be. Is this the torque converter doing this? Clogged filter maybe??? I have rebuild a few th350s so I am not afraid to open this one up, but I always rebuild by the book. I'm not much on diagnosing an automatic.

A couple things to note...the trans was supposedly rebuilt about a year ago right before I bought it, did they do something wrong? I have only driven it a couple hundred miles in the last year. It's been steadily getting worse. The trans fluid is full and surprisingly clean (maybe they did just rebuild it). Also, If I pull it down into 1st as opposed to OD it seems like it might go into gear a little quicker. Might just be my imagination though.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:42 PM   #2
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

So sad, nobody can help.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:28 PM   #3
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

I would pull the pan and see if the filter came off and what kinda crap is in the bottom of pan.DO a search and gain some knowledge if you are gonna tackle it yourself.Have you adjusted the TV cable?
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:59 PM   #4
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

The Forward Clutches are not "latching up" right-away, Can be several things like....Misadjusted shifter linkage, Internal leak it the forward clutch apply circuit, Worn sealing rings/Drums, Hard/Cut forward clutch apply piston lip seals, Cracked forward clutch apply piston, Excessive forward clutch clearance/Burnt forward clutches.

All Forward gears rely on the Forward clutches to apply. D4 oil is sent directly to the forward clutch via the Manual Valve Any time you are in a forward gear.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:24 PM   #5
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by clinebarger View Post
The Forward Clutches are not "latching up" right-away, Can be several things like....Misadjusted shifter linkage, Internal leak it the forward clutch apply circuit, Worn sealing rings/Drums, Hard/Cut forward clutch apply piston lip seals, Cracked forward clutch apply piston, Excessive forward clutch clearance/Burnt forward clutches.

All Forward gears rely on the Forward clutches to apply. D4 oil is sent directly to the forward clutch via the Manual Valve Any time you are in a forward gear.
Thanks Cline, "Internal leak in the forward clutch apply circuit" is what I have in my head is happening. Seems like fluid isn't being pumped to the correct place. I don't see any evidence of burned clutches by looking at the fluid. It looks bright red and new. In your opinion should I drop the valve body and perform a system flush with it in the truck, or just save myself the time, pull the whole thing and rebuild it?

Do you think there is any chance it is the torque converter? The fact that it goes right into reverse makes me think it IS NOT the converter, but I've heard of them doing strange things when they go out.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:34 PM   #6
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Pull it, Don't waste time/ATF on pulling the valve body, The forward clutches could still be burnt even if you do find a leak in the Valve body/separator plate/separator plate gaskets.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:43 PM   #7
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Ok, done. I'll pull it tomorrow. Thanks!
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:02 AM   #8
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

While we are on the subject, can you help me positively identify the trans? The numbering system on this tag does not follow what I normally can find for the 200-4r. I think its an Oldsmobile from a 1988 cutlass but am not for sure. Also, "KT F" doesn't come up in any of the 200-4r codes.

Sorry...gonna post a pic in just a second...
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:10 AM   #9
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

pic
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:38 PM   #10
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

KTF code 2004R's were produced '88, '89, & '90.....Across several Divisions.....
Buick...Electra & Lesabre wagon
Chevy...Impala, Caprice & Monte Carlo
Olds...Cutlass & Custom Cruiser
Cadillac...Fleetwood
Pontiac...Safari Wagon & Firebird(Turbo 3.8L only).

Tech Tip....Starting in '87 Hydra-Matic started using two Wave/Cushion steels in the Forward Clutch stack-up for the sake of a "softer forward engagement". They also put Wave plate to friction...Which is retarded.

Factory stack-up....
Wave
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Wave
Selective

Better, More Durable stack-up....
Wave
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Steel
Friction
Selective (See chart for selective plate thicknesses) This will require parts & time to get the clearance right of about .028".
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:15 PM   #11
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Thanks! I will definitely go with the better stack-up arrangement. So as far as what this trans came from can I just ask for parts for a 200-4r from any of the years of the cars you mentioned above and be fine? You know how it is when you go to a parts store, they gotta put something in the computer...
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:28 AM   #12
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

If the tranny was replaced just, right, absolutely like the day before you got it, then there's a good chance you were just running low on tranny fluid. Most people just fill it once, without realizing the torque converter will need a lot more fluid than just the tranny dipstick shows.

If you check the fluid, look at the level, look at the color, and smell what the odor is like. Even if it seems cherry, count on draining as much fluid out of that trans as possible--use a flush-and-fill service and that will ensure the torque converter gets filled, because it exchanges fluid while the trans is spinning.

If you have been running it low on fluid, then it has acted like a smaller converter or a high-stall converter. It has built a lot more heat than it was intended to see.

Other possibilities include that the person who did the swap used the wrong torque converter, a smaller torque converter, a cheap converter that's coming apart at the fins inside; the pump is no good; the valve body has a passage blocked or machined improperly; the clutch bands friction material came apart right away. the last will happen both from poor parts used in a rebuild, or from a TV cable that's not doing its function.

Many of those would be covered under warranty if the truck originally had a 200-4R, if the time hasn't expired, and if you were the original purchaser of the trans...I doubt any of those conditions hold true.

If it was me, I'd drop the pan and check if there's any MAGNETIC metal in it or the filter (just sweep any magnet around there). If there is, you're in for a new trans. If there isn't, then have the trans flushed and the correct amount of new fluid (AND a new filter! Lotsa quicky lubes leave that out) put in. The problem might return anyway, but at least you have a shot at saving some $$$.

If you do get yours rebuilt, ask for an "RV" firm shift valve body, aftermarket 2-3 shift solenoid (often called a "Corvette" solenoid even though 200-4Rs were not put in Corvettes, the 700R4s were) the extra clutch packs mentioned above, (for good measure, specify a Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe, Pontiac 2+2 Grand Prix, Hurst Olds, etc) and you should end up with a much better trans even if you started with a Cadillac core. Making it any better than that would involve changing hard parts, which gets expensive.

If you feel uncomfortable with trusting a trans even if it works fine after the fluid flush, then sell the trans as it will be to someone (giving them fair knowledge, of course, about why you are selling it) and you'll probably get more than the core charge is on a rebuilt trans.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:58 PM   #13
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

It was and had always been full of fluid, at least for the last year that I have owned it. Not to mention the fluid is very clean. I have a feeling the PO did have it rebuilt shortly before I bought the truck, but it was most likely a low quality job. The torque converter on the other hand looks like it is original from 1988! The TV cable is attached using the factory qjet linkage and a cable that's in good condition. I adjusted it using the instructions that are found all over this forum, it seemed to be adjusted properly when I got the truck. Hopefully I did it correctly and that wasn't the cause of all this. I have the trans pulled, just gonna rebuild it and I guess get a stock replacement converter. The motor in front of it will be approx 325hp and there is no need for a higher than stock stall converter with it. Here are the parts I plan to buy...

This kit (gonna get it locally, not from this retailer)

and this stock converter

And maybe this for the heck of it

I'm open to suggestions as to whether I am making decent decisions here or not. Keep in mind this is a budget build of sorts. I realize there are much better parts out there but I just need to get this thing reliable and back on the road.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:06 PM   #14
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critter View Post
It was and had always been full of fluid, at least for the last year that I have owned it. Not to mention the fluid is very clean. I have a feeling the PO did have it rebuilt shortly before I bought the truck, but it was most likely a low quality job. The torque converter on the other hand looks like it is original from 1988! The TV cable is attached using the factory qjet linkage and a cable that's in good condition. I adjusted it using the instructions that are found all over this forum, it seemed to be adjusted properly when I got the truck. Hopefully I did it correctly and that wasn't the cause of all this. I have the trans pulled, just gonna rebuild it and I guess get a stock replacement converter. The motor in front of it will be approx 325hp and there is no need for a higher than stock stall converter with it. Here are the parts I plan to buy...

This kit (gonna get it locally, not from this retailer)

and this stock converter

And maybe this for the heck of it

I'm open to suggestions as to whether I am making decent decisions here or not. Keep in mind this is a budget build of sorts. I realize there are much better parts out there but I just need to get this thing reliable and back on the road.
TranStar/TransTec kits are good, Comes with a "lip Wizard" also....Makes installing the lip seals easy..

Never heard of Pro-King converters...Don't have an opinion on this brand.

I personally wouldn't use a B&M product if it was free!
SK-2004R http://transgoonline.com/products.ph...dcountview=Yes
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:55 AM   #15
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Thanks clinebarger, good to know! I actually was able to get in touch with my local Transtar warehouse today. They are going to set me up with their master rebuild kit along with a stock stall converter with furnace braised fins for a reasonable price. I will also ask for the shift kit you mentioned. Assuming everything is installed correctly do you think this setup will be happy behind a 325 hp LS engine on the street?
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:02 PM   #16
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critter View Post
Assuming everything is installed correctly do you think this setup will be happy behind a 325 hp LS engine on the street?
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If the TV system is set-up correctly...It should hold about 350 ft. lbs. Transmissions are rated for max torque not horsepower.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:54 PM   #17
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Pro-king convetors are sold from places like advance auto ect.... i used one in my 87 f150 once it did fine for about 50k miles till i burned up the trans hauling in over drive
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:51 PM   #18
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by clinebarger View Post
If the TV system is set-up correctly...It should hold about 350 ft. lbs. Transmissions are rated for max torque not horsepower.
True, not sure why I put hp. The engine will probably be closer to 375 ft lbs so we will see how it holds up (lq4 6.0 liter). It's going to spend a lot of its life on the chassis dyno as a test mule so we will see what it does pretty quick. If it doesn't hold up, oh well, I will chalk it up to a learning experience then rebuild it stronger!

Quote:
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Pro-king convetors are sold from places like advance auto ect.... i used one in my 87 f150 once it did fine for about 50k miles till i burned up the trans hauling in over drive
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Good to know. I have read a few people say they are fine for stock replacement applications, which is all I was really going for here.
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Last edited by Critter; 05-22-2013 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 05-22-2013, 01:19 AM   #19
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

just one point I have after doing my 200-4r install.... do your self a favor and buy a pressure gauge and hose kit. Cheap insurance after a rebuild. I had one installed on my truck & it saved my ass. I had a plunger spring sticking on my valve body that was causing crazy pressure "bounce". without the gauge I would of never known.
After getting the issue resolved, I realized how bad the tranny was acting. Had no idea how bad it was until I fixed the problem.
Moral of the story, without the gauge I would have looking to rebuild the trans before I hit 5000 miles.

I got everything from BowtieOverdrives.. so far so good...




some where I have a crappy cell phone video of the gauge and the problem while driving.... let me find the link...
http://youtu.be/qhrCCsTzEGo
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Old 10-19-2014, 08:42 PM   #20
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

This is an old thread, but its mine so I am going to pick up where it left off. So since I last posted, I did check the pressures at all the suggested points and they were a little off, about 5-8psi if I remember correctly. I adjusted the TV cable and the trans was slightly better, good enough to drive around a little but it obviously still had issues. Since all this I pulled the engine and have installed the LS 6.0 engine.

The trans never was removed, when I fired up the 6.0 the trans was decent enough to drive so I did for a while working out the efi bugs. It still had its problem of not wanting to engage into the forward gears, but ran fine once it did.

So a couple months ago, I blew the dust off the truck and finally pulled the trans (a year later). I ordered a Trans-star rebuild kit, a Transgo shift kit, and a hardened heat treated stator support shaft because the one on the trans was very worn. Examples of these parts are attached.
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So, on to the actual substance of this post, the only thing I have found internally that looks bad/overly worn is the forward clutch housing and its band. The drum is very worn and grooved. The band is hard, brittle, and cracking apart. Keeping in mind that I don't have a lot of experience diagnosing internal trans problems, is this the cause of the issues I was describing in the beginning of this thread??? Here is a pic of my drum.

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Clinebarger, what say you?
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Last edited by Critter; 10-19-2014 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 10-19-2014, 08:52 PM   #21
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Here is the band...

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Old 10-19-2014, 09:20 PM   #22
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

That Direct Drum is junk, A lathe might save that drum, But not likely.

Good refurbished Drums go for 50$ to 100$.

The Intermediate/2nd gear Band needs a good flat surface to seat to,

Have you inspected the Forward Drum & Clutches? That is the area of interest for delayed forward engagement.
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Old 10-19-2014, 10:26 PM   #23
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Thanks for the reply. I haven't disassembled the forward drum and its clutches yet. Its sitting on the bench as an assembly at the moment. What in particular should I be looking for? Trashed clutches and torn seals I'm assuming?

Any suggestions on where I should get a refurb direct drum from? I have access to a lathe, should I try turning it? If so do you know a minimum acceptable diameter?
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:02 PM   #24
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Critter View Post
Thanks for the reply. I haven't disassembled the forward drum and its clutches yet. Its sitting on the bench as an assembly at the moment. What in particular should I be looking for? Trashed clutches and torn seals I'm assuming?
Before tearing the Forward Drum down, Air Check it in some Solvent & watch for leaks,
The Capsulated Checkball assembly can leak.
If Air comes from under the Drum where the Piston is, Inspect for a Cracked Piston & Torn/Hardened Seals.
The weld between the Shaft & Drum can Crack & leak as well.
See Pic below for Details.

Check the Center Support where the Forward Drum Sealing Rings ride for Wear.

Quote:
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Any suggestions on where I should get a refurb direct drum from? I have access to a lathe, should I try turning it? If so do you know a minimum acceptable diameter?
Call Transtar, Dacco is another option, As is WIT (What Ever It Takes).

The Drum is pretty thick, But Cleaning up a Drum that scared probably won't happen, If the grooves are .010" deep, That equals to at least .020 needs to be removed from the Drum, The if the Drum is Tapered...Even more needs taken off. And then you run the risk of "Machining Run-Out" Into the Drum.

Tool chatter is really bad on turning Drums, A SunShell need to be used on a "live Center" to reduce Chatter.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:21 AM   #25
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Re: 200-4r doesn't like to go in gear

As usual, that's awesome info Clinebarger. I ordered a refurb drum from PATC, it and a new tc will be here Friday.

I will get the test done on the forward clutch between now and then.

As a side note, I spent a little time looking for a NEW drum as opposed to a refurb just to see what was out there. Everything I found turned up refurb, expect one. If you go to Monster Transmission's site you can find this...

http://www.monstertransmission.com/2...l#.VEZy8vldWSo

The description said "A Brand New 200-4R drum". After calling them and talking to a couple different people someone finally came on the line said said they were actually a refurb and the description was inaccurate.
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72 Chevy CST K5 HIGHLANDER BLAZER Getting a 6.0,NV4500,NP205,14BFF (Currently laying all over the place in little pieces)
72 Chevy swb step-side "LS" 6.0 Here's a build thread of sorts
2002 HD2500 Crew Cab, 8.1L Allison 4x4 Daily Driver

Check it out www.lsdyno.com
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