1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
Hello All,
I have a: 1978 Chevy Full-time 4WD NP203 Engine 350 sb Q-Jet th400 Front axle GM Corporate 10 bolt Rear axle is a 14 bolt 4.10 gears 35" tires I want to make any cost-effective changes I can for fuel mileage and DON'T want tbi or part-time 4WD. This points me to a 700r4 transmission. Problem is, based on my calculations I could get good cruising RPMs (60mph @ 2200) from 3.73 gears in my th400. This is a project truck and not drive-able yet, so I have no idea what the MPG is currently. I would be totally happy with 12-15MPG. What would be the preferred transmission and gears? Thanks. |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
To use a 700r4 with your np203 will take a adapter kit and changing out of the input shaft.Or if you don't mind having a np205 in 91 the crewcab had a 4l80 np205 combo but was one year only.The other option is gear vendors offers a overdrive you add on but not sure if it would work with a full time t case or not.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
Do the math.
TH400 to 700R4, with lock up, is about .7 ratio change (since the lockup eliminates the slip of the converter too). Lets say getting 10mpg. 10/.7=14mpg. Let's assume its' your DD and sees 15,000 miles per year. 15,000/10 = 1,5000 gallons of gas, at $3.50, that $5250 a year. 15,000/14 = 1070 gallonss, at $3.50, that $3750 a year in gas. So that's $1500 a year, assuming you can drive it at 60mph and 1540! RPM. Which you can't - you need to be around 1650 rpm at 60mph to tolerate the drive. Really, you need to go to a part time case to get reasonable fuel economy. Here's the key. Aim to make 1600RPM at 55MPH, and find the ratios that work. Think of the 700R4 as a .72 ratio and play with tire size and gearing. |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
A easier swap would be the 700r4 np208 or np241.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
I get 11 mpg with a 350/350/np2o3 with 3.08 gears. I can't give up the 203 because I use it for bad weather. I have a 2wd for good weather and good roads. I think a 700r4 would be a very good swap for these trucks if you do a lot of highway driving. then again if you are doing lots of highway driving you may not need a np203. I would buy a tach first so you know exactly how high it is revving on the highway. It also matters how many miles you drive it per year. If you only use it for a couple thousand miles per year then the actual gas savings won't be so much.
The new Chevy 2wd trucks run 1500 rpm@70mph. I get 16 mpg at that speed. I don't think our old trucks can lug at 1500 smoothly. I think they could be happy at 1800-2000 cruising rpm. |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
why cant you give up a 203 for a 208? its just going to give you the ability to select 4wd instead of full time.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
On snow and black ice I like the full time all wheel drive without having to wonder if there is too much grip for 4WD. You can hardly make it go sideways if you try. On marginal roads you don't have to wonder if you should be in 2wd or 4wd; with a 203 you are always in AWD. I already wrecked posi trac vehicles in my younger days on black ice so I love my open axles and AWD over 2wd posi.
FWIW my brother has a new Toyota 4wd truck and that gets 15 mpg on the highway. I don't know how much we can realistically expect out of a square Chev. |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
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I inputted those numbers into a RPM/Gear ratio/Transmission calculator and it said for 1600RPM @ 55MPH I would need 4.10 rear end gears with a 700r4. Wouldn't that "lug" the motor? I mean, this is a typical speed I would drive to work so it is ideal to make that speed the most efficient. If I put 4.56 gears in, it says that I will run 1750RPMs @ 57MPH. That seems better. What do you think? |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
So a NP208. Do I need to put locking hubs on the front axle or could I just leave it as is? It's a Corporate 10 bolt.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
Part time your 203. You will still have the ability to run part time 4wd just like you have now, you will just have to get out and lock the hubs when you want it.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
The only part of the 203 worth saving is the range box. The rest is a boat anchor.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
Your right about that but this guy sounds bent on keeping his. Now that I think about it the link for the kit I posted is the wrong kit. There is another kit that doesn't wedge the spiders, but actually replaces the carrier and can still act as a differential when not locked.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
for the money a junk 208 would be what 200 bucks tops and no hurdles to bolt a 700 too.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
there ya go.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
My 78-203 Jimmy is part time with a kit,personaly I wouldn't do it now
the 203 needs to be in 4X4 to lube up,others don't. I have manual hubs,a bad weather day,I leave them locked in,shift in/out of 4 wheel lock as needed But I have been thinking of re-doing it back to full time again In my case we drive it bad weather or storms I find the Jimmy very light and fishtails easy in 4X2 I think the full time again would give me better safer grip but when I got stuck in 4X4 Hi Lock,I undid the front hubs and still drove it home |
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
just lock it in 4wd when you get out in a storm in general if your that afraid of the 2wd. me i just use 4wd when i know its something it wont climb in 2wd.
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I want that convenience and just wanted to see if there was an economical option to save fuel as well. haha I got the cake and want to eat it too! |
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
or use auto hubs. cake you can eat.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
Rocking back and forth "stuck" can make them autos engage /disengage
not a good idea with spinning wheels |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
The key is, find your motors torque curve and gear for it. ALL my trucks run 1600-1650RPM at 55 - 5.3/4L60E/3.23 3/4 ton, 4.3/700R4/3.08 1/2 ton, and 6.2 diese/700R4/3.08 1/2 ton. Any less RPM, lugs excessively. Any more, wasting fuel.
One of th rare cases where math is your friend. But be honest - if you want MPG buy a Cruze and use your truck only when desperately needed. |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
You can't lug a carbureted engine down that low and expect anything out of it. The mileage will suffer as well as throttle response/driveability
You really shouldn't with injection either, unless you really never drive that slow.... |
Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
I've been thinking this same project. Of course, my TH350 and NP203 are in good running condition, so swapping them isn't as high a priority. But here are my thoughts and research:
First, I don't really care for all-wheel drive. It's an open differential between front and rear, so if any set of tires slip then all the power goes to them anyways. I don't believe it buys you anything substantial over 2wd. I don't know about the NP203, but I know lots of people like the NP205, and they need to get creative to make it fit because of driveline clearance issues. The NP203 might be similar. Personally, I think you would be better off with a transfer case specifically designed to work with the 700R4 like the forementioned NP208 or NP241. If it's a money issue, I bet you could find a transfer case for possibly cheaper than an adapter for the NP203. If the goal is milage, then I'd still advise you to dump the 203. Spinning all that front running gear is just eating gas. You want selectable hubs and the ability to just run 2wd. If convience is your issue, I don't think there is anything devastating about running selectable hubs locked all the time. Sure, it will increase the wear and tear, but it can't be worse than an NP203 that is already running them locked all the time, right? I do this in the winter on my Ford pickup up and over mountain passes. Lock the front hubs, but keep the transfer case in 2wd. If I hit snow, put the transfer case in 4WD and I'm golden. I lock my hubs usually around early November, and unlock them around March. Like I said, I'm in the same boat. I've got the same package, and I'm looking for the same change. I just don't see any major reason to keep that NP203. I researched it once, but I can't remember the reasons that led me to choose the 241 over the 208. But I DO remember they only had a speedometer cable for one year, and then they switched to electronic speedo. So I'm looking for a 700R4/NP241 combo from an 89 Blazer. |
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my 01 ran 1800-1900 at 70 it was 4wd would never get under 17-18 mpg no matter how fast you drove it. most of the time was in the 20-21 mpg range. saw about 23-24 mpg once on the highway. i dont see that your lugging it like mentioned. most v8s dont lug until there under 1500 rpm. my dads 4.3 s10 was the same it was 67 at 1900.
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Re: 1978 full-time 4x4. Is a 700r4 worth it?
Jankovic,
I know what you mean about your 203/fulltime. I've thought about doing the same as your thinking and using a 700r4. But just in the thought process. May never do it. Anyways...along time ago I changed mine to part time and have regreted it ever since. I don't wheel or beat in my truck so I don't need a beefier transfer case. And I found that now when I am in 4wd it catches when I turn in a parking lot if there is an area that isn't slick. Also I find that I got even tire wear with the full time and terrible tire wear with part time. So some day I'll change it back. Anyway just sharing thoughts and saying I understand where you are coming from. |
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