The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/index.php)
-   The 1973 - 1987 Chevrolet & GMC Squarebody Pickups Message Board (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Restoring Rusty (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=645440)

rich weyand 10-06-2016 08:09 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
My cam is 192/200°@050, with 108°LSA. I run 16° base, with 20° mechanical, and 15° vacuum at the manifold.

Gregski 10-06-2016 09:50 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
so a quick update, well it turns out I am not a shmuck and the distributor was in there correctly, see the before and after pics of when I re stabbed it today, they look identical and that's the best way it goes to be at #1 TDC, I even took the driver side valve cover off and spun the engine around and watched the #1 intake valve go down and back up, etc.

Gregski 10-06-2016 10:00 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
4 Attachment(s)
without my Air Fuel Ratio since the O2 sensors went on a frits and both read 22.4/22.4 I felt like a fish out of the water, but I tried to tune what I could, so I checked the float levels and they were a bit too high, so I adjusted them down a bit so that fuel only dripped out when I hip bumped the fender of the truck, I also screwed the idle mixture screws all the way in and watched the truck die, then I backed them both out 1/2 a turn plus it wanted another 1/4 turn out, that seemed to make things a tiny bit better I think

then I spent a couple hours fandangling with those BOSCH LSU 4.9 oxygen sensors and, calibrated them and re calibrated them, then cleaned them with some brake cleaner and a gold color bristle wire brush and finally one of them woke up and decided to work

Now I had some feedback, so I took it for a spin and Idle mixture was good in the upper 13s, but WOT was lean high 14s sometimes 15s, so I think it's time to go to bigger jets

currently I am running 62 primary jets and 65 secondary jets, I believe the carb comes stock with a 64/69 jet combo so I may inch my way up to that, maybe try 63/67 first

this would make sense as we now have two more hungry cylinders to feed!

69heavychevy 10-06-2016 10:28 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I noticed that you didnt use a vortec specific intake gasket. Any reason for that?? Does the paper gasket seal just as good?? I only ask because I'll be replacing mine soon and the redesigned vortec intake gaskets are too expensive!!

SkinnyG 10-06-2016 11:32 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7735186)
so a quick update, well it turns out I am not a shmuck and the distributor was in there correctly

The rotor is and was in the right place, but you ran out of adjustment in the distributor. Moving it over a tooth puts the body in a more adjustment-friendly location, and you should be able to get some more base timing (I'd like to see at least 15° base with your cam, maybe more).

All your fueling is going to be dependent on your timing - if you're not running the same base timing as you were before, your fueling will be off. Get your base timing back to where it was, and you ~shouldn't~ have to muck about too much (other than you might have a lot more vacuum and compression now).

rich weyand 10-07-2016 03:02 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7735196)
Now I had some feedback, so I took it for a spin and Idle mixture was good in the upper 13s, but WOT was rich high 14s sometimes 15s, so I think it's time to go to bigger jets

You mean LEAN, right? WOT should be around 13, and it's an AIR/FUEL ratio, so 14 or 15 means the air is high, which is lean.

Bigger jets is right, though. Adds more fuel, which is in the denominator, so it brings the number DOWN.

For cruise, low 14s is right. What's your cruise reading?

Gregski 10-07-2016 10:03 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7735346)
You mean LEAN, right?

Yes, dope, my bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7735346)
WOT should be around 13, and it's an AIR/FUEL ratio, so 14 or 15 means the air is high, which is lean.

yes I am shooting for 13s

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7735346)
For cruise, low 14s is right. What's your cruise reading?

My cruise currently is 16/17 I like it in the 15s especially since I didn't like seeing those white exhaust valves, but you may be right I may need to bring it down to the 14s

just need to relearn what this new(ish) (healthier) engine likes now, and the seasons change aint helping in comparing apples to apples as the cold air is much denser, and I swear Sacramento likes to go from the high 90s F to the 50s F over night this time of the year

Gregski 10-07-2016 10:05 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 69heavychevy (Post 7735221)
I noticed that you didnt use a vortec specific intake gasket. Any reason for that?? Does the paper gasket seal just as good?? I only ask because I'll be replacing mine soon and the redesigned vortec intake gaskets are too expensive!!

I believe I am, it's the Fel-Pro 1255 part number, and this is what Summit says:

"Designed for GM Vortec, ZZ4, Edelbrock E-Tech cylinder heads. End rail seals are not included. Installation to be done with a bead of silicone at the manifold ends. Dual bolt pattern. No exhaust crossover openings. Not for use on 1982-85 fuel injection. Gaskets fit many O.E. and aftermarket heads."

rich weyand 10-07-2016 10:39 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7735475)
My cruise currently is 16/17 I like it in the 15s especially since I didn't like seeing those white exhaust valves, but you may be right I may need to bring it down to the 14s

14.7 is the stoichiometric value, in which all the air and all the gas take part in the combustion event. None left over of either. So a cruise in the 15s is OK. 16/17 is getting pretty thin for my taste, but some people like it for the mileage. I aimed at 14-14.5 in cruise, which runs a little cooler, I think, than going quite so lean.

rich weyand 10-07-2016 08:56 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
One other complication to note. The number of oxygen molecules in a given volume of air varies with temperature. So when it gets cold out, the mixture numbers will run leaner, and when hot, they will run richer.

I have the thermac air cleaner on my truck, so the inlet temperature is always about the same, winter or summer. BUT, when I get on it, the vacuum drop will open the air door and pull in ambient air. So I run my secondaries with an A/FR of about 12.5 in 70 degree F air. In the winter, that number will be much higher when the air door opens, but I don't want to have to swap needles twice a year.

Fuel injection compensates for all of this stuff on the fly. This is just a carb consideration, particularly since you aren't running the thermac air cleaner. Going into the winter, lower numbers now would be better, because they will climb as the temperature falls.

Gregski 10-07-2016 09:10 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daddyjeep (Post 7733700)
I went into my local Sears last week for a socket and they had that exact torque wrench on sale for $39. Of course i brought it home with me. The plastic collar that adjusts the weight on my old Craftsman broke after about 15 years.

Well you was right about the price, I saw the same one that I bought for $39 on their website so I called them up and asked if they would price match their own site and they said bring it in and we'll see what we can do. So today I drove in with my Chinese wrench in hand and got $32 bucks credited back to my account, nice, the new wrench is sorta worth the $39 bucks I paid for it, makes it easier to swallow

Gregski 10-07-2016 09:11 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Status Report: so after rejetting the carb to the 63/67 primary/secondary jets the truck runs better, I drove it in to work today again then ran over to SEARS, but its still lean at WOT, so tonight after it cools off (the engine not the weather, ha ha) we will rejet it to 64/69 the default jets the carb would have come with new

69heavychevy 10-07-2016 10:16 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7735478)
I believe I am, it's the Fel-Pro 1255 part number, and this is what Summit says:

"Designed for GM Vortec, ZZ4, Edelbrock E-Tech cylinder heads. End rail seals are not included. Installation to be done with a bead of silicone at the manifold ends. Dual bolt pattern. No exhaust crossover openings. Not for use on 1982-85 fuel injection. Gaskets fit many O.E. and aftermarket heads."

I was going to use fel-pro ms98000t, but if those 1255's seal just as good i'll use those instead. I like that price a lot better.

Gregski 10-08-2016 03:21 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 69heavychevy (Post 7736008)
I was going to use fel-pro ms98000t, but if those 1255's seal just as good i'll use those instead. I like that price a lot better.

That is a good gasket but I think it's only available in a kit, which is pretty expensive if you just want that gasket. Stock Suburbans run them, see below

Gregski 10-08-2016 03:28 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty - Engine Ratlle
 

Well not good fellars! After putting on just over 100 miles on the newly reassembled engine I started hearing a rattling sound coming from the engine. Naturally I can't tell where exactly it is coming from, (I even tried the long pipe to the ear trick)

Sounds like there is a loose nut bouncing around one of the valve covers.

So I removed both valve covers and did not see anything peculiar there. So I thought maybe a rocker is loose, nope. Maybe a collapsed lifter, nope. Well I readjusted the valves just for good measure, and went for a test drive, and the rattle is still there. Cant really hear it when the engine is idling but it increases with RPMs gets faster and louder.

Hmmm sound familiar? I swear it better not be these pesky Hooker headers again!


I'm off to the gym now to blow off some steam, gonna bench press 300 lbs (plus or minus 200, ha ha) when I get back I plan on removing them headers and trying my old OEM stock exhaust manifolds, joy!

Wide Open 10-08-2016 03:48 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Wow that sucks
Posted via Mobile Device

Gregski 10-08-2016 09:35 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wide Open (Post 7736774)
Wow that sucks
Posted via Mobile Device

Yup, big time!

Gregski 10-08-2016 09:39 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
Well I strapped on my ol' exhaust manifolds back on with the ol' LMC Truck dual exhaust with the generic turbo mufflers and the rattle is still there, so the good news is it wasn't my Hooker headers leaking again, the bad news is we don't know what it is, and it could be ugly, something in the bottom end

Gregski 10-08-2016 10:29 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
unplugged one spark plug at a time and started and ran the engine to see if the rattle noise goes away and it does not, darn it, tomorrow the oil pan comes off and we take a deeper dive

Marshy 10-08-2016 11:19 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
In your last trip into your engine did you check the condition of the main bearings when you replaced the rod bearings? Did you check the rod bearing clearance when you were there? In most cases people have the crank polished when they do bearings.

I was surprised to see you deglazed the cylinder bores with the crank still in and replace the rod bearings without polishing the crank or check the makings (maybe you did but didn't tell us?). At this point you would have been farther ahead to send the block to the shop to get cleaned up inside and out, had crank turned or just polished and had them put new cam bearings in. Then you'd have a whole new motor. Sorry for the set back, I know how that can be. Knowing which corner to cut can be tricky.

harley87ta 10-08-2016 11:29 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Good Luck.. Hopefully it's something simple

SkinnyG 10-09-2016 01:08 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Make sure the rod caps were put on the correct way.

The two "tangs" that notch the bearings in go together.

Gregski 10-09-2016 10:17 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshy (Post 7737164)
In your last trip into your engine did you check the condition of the main bearings when you replaced the rod bearings? Did you check the rod bearing clearance when you were there? In most cases people have the crank polished when they do bearings.

I was surprised to see you deglazed the cylinder bores with the crank still in and replace the rod bearings without polishing the crank or check the makings (maybe you did but didn't tell us?). At this point you would have been farther ahead to send the block to the shop to get cleaned up inside and out, had crank turned or just polished and had them put new cam bearings in. Then you'd have a whole new motor. Sorry for the set back, I know how that can be. Knowing which corner to cut can be tricky.

True but I didn't have $1,500 to spend and I wanted to do the work myself or at least see if I could

Gregski 10-09-2016 11:07 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinnyG (Post 7737232)
Make sure the rod caps were put on the correct way.

The two "tangs" that notch the bearings in go together.

Yes sir, I payed attention when I took them off and I noticed that there was a sharp pointy ridge or edge on the driver side bearing caps all pointing to the front of the truck and the opposite was true on the passenger side so I made sure I put them back in, in the same fashion, I even double checked after torquing down the cap bolts to spec

Gregski 10-09-2016 11:09 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I'll tell you this much I will be pissed and relieved at the same time if I just find my 9/16ths six point socket rattling in the oil pan (I'm looking at you Craftsman you know you love to get lost all the time) ha ha

hatzie 10-09-2016 11:25 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Did you change the oil pump while you had the pan off?

Gregski 10-09-2016 11:27 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 7737429)
Did you change the oil pump while you had the pan off?

No, cause it is brand new I did that about 6 months ago already, new pump new pickup screen etc.

SkinnyG 10-09-2016 11:36 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
These notches, in green. You can see the shadow of the notch on the rod.

Though it sounds like you put the caps on correctly anyway.

hatzie 10-09-2016 11:43 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7737431)
No, cause it is brand new I did that about 6 months ago already, new pump new pickup screen etc.

Well it's probably not needed then... :lol::lol:

Marshy 10-09-2016 11:44 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
You bought standard size bearings IIRC. Could it be possible the rod journals are already 0.010 under and you bought the wrong bearings? If you have the old bearings check the backside and see if they are 10 under bearings.

68Timber 10-09-2016 12:11 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshy (Post 7737443)
You bought standard size bearings IIRC. Could it be possible the rod journals are already 0.010 under and you bought the wrong bearings? If you have the old bearings check the backside and see if they are 10 under bearings.

I forgot about that, but I wondered about that too when you bought the bearings and mentioned they were standard size. Did you mic the crank to see if it'd been turned?

Gregski 10-09-2016 02:13 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshy (Post 7737443)
You bought standard size bearings IIRC. Could it be possible the rod journals are already 0.010 under and you bought the wrong bearings? If you have the old bearings check the backside and see if they are 10 under bearings.

Originals were stock

Gregski 10-09-2016 02:14 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Timber (Post 7737462)
Did you mic the crank to see if it'd been turned?

Of course not, ha ha, this is a dingleberry rebuild, if I was to do it all over again I would have re used the old bearings and just changed the rings, oh well, live and learn

Gregski 10-09-2016 02:21 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Status Update: so dropped the oil pan and did not get killed by any falling shrapnel, so that's good

managed to pull out the first four bearing sets (to do the others I need to rotate the crank and things will get mangled or the pistons will have to be pushed up out of the way) so we do half at a time

#1 more wear than #3 and #4 too loose to snap back in to the cap

#2 more wear than #3 and #4 too loose to snap back in to the cap

#3 normal wear, snaps back in to the cap

#4 normal wear, snaps back in to the cap

as you know The Greg only blames himself or at least himself first, but remember how my torque wrench gave up the ghost while torquing the cylinder heads, well guess what the last thing I torqued prior to that was my bearing caps, so there I'm looking at you Craftsman

so I am going to get two new bearings and pop them in to #1 and #2 and torque them down with my brand new China made Craftsman torque wrench

Gentlemen, I have seen many opposite recommendations on how to install the new bearnigs, from clean them with brake fluid, wipe them down and install them dry, to use engine oil, to goop some engine assembly lube on them, so what are your favorite ways to install these bad boys? the last time The Greg just used engine oil

Marshy 10-09-2016 02:33 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Clean them with brake kleen then use engine oil or assembly lube, your choice, can't go wrong with either. Dry is not a good idea IMO. Also not checking that you have the right bearing could mean another trip back into the engine and another replacement. Plastigauge is a sound method for checking journal clearance. How about those main bearings? If the rod bearings needed replacing then the mains did also. Might want to check then while your in there.

hatzie 10-09-2016 02:41 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I'll be captain obvious here... They need to be throughly clean as well as the anti-rotation indents in the rods and caps clear of crud.
You also need to be sure the oil holes from the main journals to the rod journals are clear of crud. If you get any siginifcant crud from the rod journal feed holes you may need to pull the block so you can remove the crank.
Install them with assembly lube not dry.

If the cam or main bearings are loose the oil pressure will drop.

Gregski 10-09-2016 03:10 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshy (Post 7737553)
Clean them with brake kleen then use engine oil or assembly lube, your choice, can't go wrong with either. Dry is not a good idea IMO. Also not checking that you have the right bearing could mean another trip back into the engine and another replacement. Plastigauge is a sound method for checking journal clearance. How about those main bearings? If the rod bearings needed replacing then the mains did also. Might want to check then while your in there.

Rod bearings did not need replacing the rings did

Marshy 10-09-2016 03:16 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7737571)
Rod bearings did not need replacing the rings did

Why did you replace them then, just because you were there when honing?. The only thing you did in the lower end was replace those bearings. If you need 10 under bearing and put standard bearings in then that could explain your sound. Also having one or more not torqued properly would too... just saying, easy check. GL, hope your figure it out.

Gregski 10-09-2016 04:15 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
thank you all for your feedback, coming up are some visuals

Gregski 10-09-2016 04:17 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshy (Post 7737577)
Why did you replace them then, just because you were there when honing?.

yes the old ones were out so I thought might as well put new ones in, it's like when you take the old water pump off to do the timing set, you put a new water pump back on, even if the old one was still good, just cause it's such a P.I.A.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:11 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1997-2022 67-72chevytrucks.com