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-   -   Restoring Rusty (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=645440)

RDrancher 07-17-2018 07:33 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
That's T-rrific!

Gregski 07-17-2018 11:51 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 8302978)
That'll work.

danke

Gregski 07-17-2018 11:52 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rusty76 (Post 8303142)
Works for me

dzienkuje

Gregski 07-17-2018 11:53 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RDrancher (Post 8303172)
That's T-rrific!

:haha:

Gregski 07-18-2018 10:56 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Well how does it drive, how does it shift, do you like it?

I like this transmission very much, it shifts very nicely. One note to make is that no matter how hard it is to shift on the bench, ie when you have it out of the truck, that is not how it is going to shift when bolted up to an engine with that long lever of a shift stick, it actually shifts easily when installed on the truck

However I'll be honest with you as always, I replaced one used Craigslist transmission that was making noises with another used Craigslist transmission that makes different noises, LOL!

It's fine and normal in Reverse and 1st gear, but as soon as I shift it into 2nd it starts to make a rattling noise, as if there was a loose bolt in the case just bouncing around (that's the best way I can describe it) and continues to make the same rattling noise in 3rd and 4th gears as well as in neutral when rolling. :hmm:

hatzie 07-18-2018 05:14 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Input shaft center support needle bearing or the cluster gear needles make noise in the Saginaws.
GM only used two rows of needles inside the cluster gear in the Saginaw 3 & 4 speeds vs four rows in most other transmissions so the countershaft and cluster gear sometimes wear badly.
Not difficult to repair as long as the cluster gear isn't knackered.

If you like that transmission fix it before it strips the teeth off the input shaft or the cluster gear or both.

The GM NP440/A833 MY6 is a more robust light duty transmission than the Saginaw. The only real gotcha is the countershaft bearing wearing the aluminum case hole oval. It can be repaired. Chrysler used the AL case A833 in racing applications with steel bushings in the countershaft bores that were tight press-fit to the case and loose press fit to the countershaft.
Not just any Joe with a Bridgeport is going to be able to pull this off. I am not capable of setting up this level of precision boring. I can make bushings within 0.0005" on my small lathe but aligning a worn case on my Gorton 9J table or dogged to the carriage on my big lathe so the shaft holes can be bored in-line and concentric with probably only four to six points of reference (two to three per hole) left of the original bores is not a task I'm willing to undertake.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp...-case-buildup/

Gregski 07-19-2018 09:43 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8303851)
Input shaft center support needle bearing or the cluster gear needles make noise in the Saginaws.
GM only used two rows of needles inside the cluster gear in the Saginaw 3 & 4 speeds vs four rows in most other transmissions so the countershaft and cluster gear sometimes wear badly.
Not difficult to repair as long as the cluster gear isn't knackered.

If you like that transmission fix it before it strips the teeth off the input shaft or the cluster gear or both.

thank you bud as always you are one of the pillars on this epic forum, yes I like this transmission very much and will fix it, parts have been ordered from All State Gear and were quite cheap at $63 bucks plus shipping

I work in IT (Information Technology) so sometimes we work while you sleep ie in the off hours and weekends, ha ha so this weekend is hell weekend so no time to wrench

Gregski 07-20-2018 10:23 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
So Gentlemen, what is the best part about driving your truck around without putting the transmission tunnel back on?

LT7A 07-20-2018 10:31 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Took me a minute, but I'm assuming you mean the in-cab bump that bolts over the transmission? I would think you would get to enjoy all kinds of things like increased road noise, dust particles, heat, engine noise and a malodorous combination of antifreeze, exhaust and engine oil. But maybe that's not it. I'm dying to know what I missed.

Rich84 07-20-2018 10:35 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
The suspense is mounting....

Gregski 07-20-2018 10:54 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by LT7A (Post 8305040)
Took me a minute, but I'm assuming you mean the in-cab bump that bolts over the transmission? I would think you would get to enjoy all kinds of things like increased road noise, dust particles, heat, engine noise and a malodorous combination of antifreeze, exhaust and engine oil. But maybe that's not it. I'm dying to know what I missed.

Spot on my brother from another mother. ha ha you git to see and smell all kinds of leaks drip down (bonus points for proper use of the word "malodorous" had to look it up... ahem, for a friend)

As you all may recall from years ago The Greg cleaned his bellhousing to Full Metal Jacket drill sergeant standards... well it and the trans have gotten greasy since and he's been scratching his head going where is the leak coming from, it don't smell like trans fluid, it don't taste like trans fluid, it don't feel like trans fluid

so put on your best fittin' Sherlock Homes hats and note the distinguished drip down spread pattern on either side of the bell and dry as Sahara in the middle

Gregski 07-20-2018 10:56 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich84 (Post 8305044)
The suspense is mounting....

glad to see more folks fartin' around on this forum rather than working, ha ha

Gregski 07-20-2018 11:08 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
so the hood lift we shall, and to quote any Middle Manager "let's take a deeper dive" ha ha

well what do we have here, let's start with the passenger side shall we...

let's see if we can fly this camera equipped drone in a bit closer ... aka ... zoom in

well that's a mighty fine oil puddle there in the intake manifold bolt valley if I do say so myself

Gregski 07-20-2018 11:10 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
and the other side please...

Gregski 07-20-2018 11:13 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
so my original thought was leaky valve cover gaskets, but I am running brand new rubber ones with a liberal coating of gasket sealer on them for good measure, plus when I looked, felt, examined the valve covers I noticed there was oil on top of the valve covers, which then led me to look in / on the intake manifold

so I know I am using generic grade 5 hardware store bolts to hold down the intake manifold with generic washers to boot, would using some proper intake manifold bolts such as the ARP ones made from unoptanium remedy this issue? - (I'm looking at you HATZIE) ha ha

Gregski 07-20-2018 12:18 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
needless to say this oil leak has been bothering me, so after I found some flanged bolts I went to town on attempting a solution

first I dry cleaned the oil puddles and yanked the old bolts out

then I goopedetized the new flanged bolts in a liberal coat of Permatex gasket sealer, an old engine builders trick

and then I torqued them back in to spec (as hard as you can, plus a quarter turn, as Mustang Frank used to say, ha ha) jk

Gregski 07-20-2018 12:31 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
then I spick and spanned the bellhousing [again]

for the record the last mess took just over 1,000 miles of driving to get yucky that's when I did the new top end, so I will provide an update after the next blissful 1,000 miles

current mileage just over 16,300

LT7A 07-20-2018 02:59 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8305063)
bonus points for proper use of the word "malodorous" had to look it up... ahem, for a friend

Hahaha, had me choking on my morning beverage. I hope that the new intake bolts do the trick. Did you pull the manifold and reseal or are you hoping the squinch power of the new bolts does the job?

peabobble 07-20-2018 09:07 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Watching your solution closely since I have the same dysfunction.

Gregski 07-22-2018 12:21 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
4 Attachment(s)
well right after I scored the Mr. Gasket T handle, I happened to win the eBay auction for this shifter ball, well it ain't the $700 dollar one but it might do

looks just like the white one I already had but this one gots the right thread in it

MikeB 07-23-2018 08:48 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I have maybe $3k-$4k more in my 82 C10 than it's worth, but I'd bet you've outdone me! :)

My latest sink hole is dropped spring hangers and new rear springs (with all the associated bolts and bushings) and a cool non-step bumper with required brackets, bolts, etc. Around $800 all-in. Ka-ching!

I keep telling my wife that it keeps me out of the bars and strip clubs.

Gregski 07-24-2018 11:14 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 8307326)
I have maybe $3k-$4k more in my 82 C10 than it's worth, but I'd bet you've outdone me! :)

My latest sink hole is dropped spring hangers and new rear springs (with all the associated bolts and bushings) and a cool non-step bumper with required brackets, bolts, etc. Around $800 all-in. Ka-ching!

I keep telling my wife that it keeps me out of the bars and strip clubs.

funny shizwah you always make me laugh, chics dig the non-step bumper! LOL

Gregski 07-24-2018 11:17 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by peabobble (Post 8305422)
Watching your solution closely since I have the same dysfunction.

cool, well it looks like we won't have to wait 1,000 miles, seems like after about 100 miles the solution did not take on the driver side

hard to see in the second pic but the bell housing is wet on the driver side, my oil is nice and clean so it's hard to tell it's running down that side

That does it, we're doing an LS Swap!!! jk

hatzie 07-24-2018 12:09 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
There are grade 8 bolts with an o-ring in a groove to fix this problem. Not sure where I saw them...
If you have a lathe you can make your own...

Just like a Harley. It's not leaking... it's marking its' territory.

Gregski 07-26-2018 09:58 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
4 Attachment(s)
so the Saginaw 4 Speed Transmission rebuild kit showed up

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:34 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
alright so the first thing I done did the night before was clean off an entire work bench, I don't know about you but I just function better in clean space, also I never rebuilt a transmission so I need all the help I can get and this ought to help me lay the parts out propper

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:39 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
I was a hopin' the truck gods would smile upon me as I removed the side cover first with the gear box still attached to the engine, I figured what the hewk lets go for the easy win, maybe some spring or clamp or bracket fell off in there and is just bouncin' around

well no such luck, everything appeared in order, although at first I thought could that fork be broken like that, well no a quick stare and compare with the new one on All State Gear dot com revealed that's just how the 3-4 ? I think they mean 1-2 shift fork is

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:40 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
even stuck my hand inside the belly of the beast and tried to wiggle things a bit but nothing out of the ordinary other than worn bearings and syncros I believe, I felt around in the puddle of left over gear oil for broken bits gear teeth etc, but nothin'

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:43 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
so out she came, and I hoisted her up on the work bench for disassembly...

so happy I can yank the transmission out without disassembling my dual exhaust, saves so much time

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:47 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
so took some pics of the guts, ie the orientation of the gears and syncros so I know how they all go back in

and after removing the input shaft housing, the speedo gear I just loosend the tail housing and call it a night on the account that I apparently do not own a set of snap ring pliers (shame on me)

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:51 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
For The Record: this is the second GM aka Chevy transmission (the 833 overdrive one being the other) that aint all that popular, so finding info on how to rebuild a Saginaw 4 speed, or better yet how to take it apart took some doing, I saw a few nut job YouTube videos, most were for the 3 speed, and then this guy who calls himself Melrose RS saved the day on our sister Camaro forum How to disassemble a Saginaw transmission

Gregski 07-27-2018 11:10 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
a quick stop at the local Napa and we were back in business

these babies were xpensive, $40 bucks, but sposely they are reversable, for in and out bound rings

Gregski 07-27-2018 01:20 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8303851)
Input shaft center support needle bearing or the cluster gear needles make noise in the Saginaws.
GM only used two rows of needles inside the cluster gear in the Saginaw 3 & 4 speeds vs four rows in most other transmissions so the countershaft and cluster gear sometimes wear badly.
Not difficult to repair as long as the cluster gear isn't knackered.

Thank you, much appreciated as always, I aint no expert but to me it sounds like the noise I hear is the noise coming from the idler gear when it is engaged, of course I am testing with a try gear box, ie no gear oil so maybe with oil it don't sound like that, anyways that would be the noise of gear teeth meshing

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:33 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
so equipped with my new tool, wrong tool mind you (it's not the type of snap ring pliers you need) I began to take this transmission apart

first I removed the four bolts that hold the input shaft housing to the front of the transmission (but we've been over this before when we swapped the smaller car style housing for the larger truck housing)

then I snapped out the ring that holds the input shaft bearing and that was a bear

for the record I was expecting / hoping for some slop in the front bearing but it felt nice and solid

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:37 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
with the front bearing snap ring out, and the bearing off, I was able to separate the tail housing and pull the main shaft out of the back of the transmission case

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:43 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
naturally the input shaft separated from the main shaft and half a dozen needle roller bearings were on the run, there are 14 total

Important Lesson Learned: I sorta knew this already but the eye opening experience is to discover that although the short input shaft is on the same plane as the main shaft ie they make one horizontal line, they are actually two separate spinning shafts independent of each other, don't laugh it's obvious to sum, but us idiot savants need time to digest, jk

I believe the 4th gear ie direct drive, so 1:1 ratio lives on the input shaft

Gregski 07-27-2018 02:47 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
started taking the parts off the main shaft, I think this is the 3-4 slider

Gregski 07-27-2018 03:02 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
Saginaw 4 Speed Transmission schematic from DriveTrain.com, wish it had parts names to go with it

it's really hard to find anything on these four speed Saginaw's seems like every time you search they want to shove Muncie pics at your, ha ha

so I had the second pic from AutoZone but deleted it cause they say it's a Muncie, but clearly it's my four speed Saginaw

Gregski 07-27-2018 03:10 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
I think here I am taking off the 3rd gear, sorry about the shifting my transmission on the bench left to right and front to back it may be difficult to make sense of any of this

Gregski 07-27-2018 11:30 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
at this point I didn't quite know what was holding the main shaft in the tail housing still, so I decided to remove the rear oil seal to see if I can find a snap ring in there, but nope, turns out that's not what hold the shaft in there

though I had a proper seal puller this seal was in there for 40 years and was too stubborn to go quietly into the night, so I had to tickle it a little bit


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