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-   -   Restoring Rusty (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=645440)

Gregski 07-21-2019 10:19 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daddyjeep (Post 8556762)
I really don't know why people still choose to live in that state. :)

true, can't wait to retire and move out, next month our son starts college in Oregon! 👍🏼

Gregski 07-21-2019 10:21 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SCOTI (Post 8556843)
More & more are moving to TX. I went to look @ a house (that was set-up w/the car guys needs in mind) yesterday morning only to find out they got a cash offer from someone coming from Cali using internet pics/info only.

This is the 3rd time it's happened to me . . .. :waah:

yeah I also hear Californians move to a new state like Texas or Colorado and slowly start turning that place into California 👎🏼

Gregski 07-21-2019 10:22 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8562346)
Go to the Borg and get the 1,000 count bag of 4" cable ties. I use them to neaten up and bundle wiring harnesses.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...00MB/203531926

I use the Paladin/Greenlee 1828 cable tie gun but you can cinch them up by hand and use a pair of sharp good quality flush cutting electronics dikes to cut the tails off flush with the tabs. Split poly will slide right over the small wire ties.
The Paladin 1828 tool is around $25. It puts the exact same tension on every tie and cuts them off flush in one fell swoop but they're pricey.
A good set of dikes like Hakko CHP-170s are $6. The Xcelite 175-M dikes are $20 but they aren't any better than the Hakko dikes.

bro you always give Rock Star advice, I just want you to know the detail and explanations you provide are very much appreciated 👊🏼

hatzie 07-21-2019 11:26 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8562364)
oh god no I haven't as if I could hate California more, but I already live in an HOA community so that sucks already

HOA is the way a developer keeps making money from the community after they sell off the properties. The administration of these petty dictatorships is fodder for interesting discussions about some of the more vile qualities of human nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8562366)
yeah I also hear Californians move to a new state like Texas or Colorado and slowly start turning that place into California ����

Buisinesse have been fleeing New York State for quite a while. New York City and the Southeastern counties run the entire state legislature and certainly elect the governor. Many gubernatorial candidates don't bother to really campaign outside the capitol district and the NYC area. Flyover country doesn't matter. They just pay the bills.
Unfortunately the Nuke Yorkers have migrated through Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts and now they're invading Southern Maine and New Hampshire. Our states are small enough that they can, and do, vote in more than one. They fought tooth and nail against NH voter ID for this very reason. We've removed non-resident "summer people" from town meetings more than once for attempting to vote on town matters... and we're in the North Country. I may move over to the Northeast Kingdom when I retire to get away from them.
The real New Hampshire motto applies to these over-entitled political locusts... Welcome to New Hampshaah... GO HOME!!

Enough politics. Back to trucks...

LeesTruk 07-21-2019 01:06 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
I know you've created a masterpiece of welded bracketry for your shifter, but thought I'd give you another idea. I also am running a Lokar shifter in my C10. Ran into the same situation as you. Here's what I did just using a tube bender

Gregski 07-22-2019 01:38 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LeesTruk (Post 8562444)
I know you've created a masterpiece of welded bracketry for your shifter, but thought I'd give you another idea. I also am running a Lokar shifter in my C10. Ran into the same situation as you. Here's what I did just using a tube bender

LOL, thanks I had Ray Charles weld that for me with his feet, thank you I appreciate that but you are not running the Manual Lever Position Sensor (MLPS) block box which gets in the way, that's the whole dilemma, it just doesn't work with that important box, even Lokar Tech Support say they only had it setup with it removed

LeesTruk 07-22-2019 02:18 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
True, I'm not using the trans. switch. The Lokar has the NSS, and the only purpose I could think of for the trans switch would be for reverse lighting. Our LS PCM's don't really need the switch

hatzie 07-22-2019 11:52 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
A Z-bend right where the weldment is placed would do the job. They look purdy too.

Gregski 07-28-2019 11:29 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
Wiring Part Deux (... Progress) - a lot of folks find wiretization intimidating that's why I would like to share the steps I am going through to re route the harness in my beloved '74 GMC, rather than just sharing before and after pics

Findings: in this driver side inner fender PCM layout your reach will be dictated by the following sensor wires:

Alternator
Throttle Position Sensor
Idle Air Control Do Hickey

basically all the sensors on the nose of the engine, but the good news is that we will have enough reach!

MAF just shown for completion, a coin toss will determine actual placement, ha ha

I do plan on shortening and repining the longer wires to clean up the last foot of the harness aka the birds nest

Gregski 07-28-2019 11:34 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
Grounds Demystified

having liberated all of my ground wires from my 2001 GMC Sierra 4.8L 4L60E engine wiring harness, I learned that only the following four components use what I call external/dedicated wire grounds:

1. Coils

2. Oxygen Sensors (some don't use a separate ground wire, but ground by housing contacting the down pipe)

3. MAF

4. MLPS (Transmission Neutral Switch / Range Sensor)

In addition the PCM itself consumes four grounds:

1. Blue Connector PIN # 1

2. Blue Connector PIN # 40

3. Red Connector PIN # 1

4. Red Connector PIN # 40

To roll our own Fuse/Relay block we borrow one of the extra grounds from something that got deleted, and we do the same for the little OBDII port, it too needs a dedicated ground

The following sensors get their grounds from the PCM I call these internal grounds:

1. Blue Connector Crank Shaft Position Sensor PIN #21

2. Blue Connector PRND Trans PIN #32

3. Blue Connector Transmission #41

4. Blue Connector Throttle Position Sensor PIN #54

5. Blue Connector Camshaft Position Sensor PIN #61

6. Blue Connector Coolant Temp Sensor PIN #63

7. Red Connector IAT Sensor PIN #57

Gregski 07-28-2019 11:40 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
just wanted to share some progress pics of my engine wiring harness re routing, really like how it is turning out although it does not happen over night, but a little each night, best part is that no lengthening of wires required to reach the PCM on the driver side inner fender = Win!

Although I unpinned all the wires and re routed them I opted for the lay it over method rather than cutting and recrimping new terminals on the extra long ones, I just didn't feel I had the skills to match the factory crimps, mea culpa! I still might could cut and solder the really long wires, we'll see.

The following PINs / Wires were left in on the BLUE CONNECTOR to roll your own fuse/realy block, gauges, etc.

19 Pink - Key on power

20 Orange - Allways hot power

33 Purple - TCC Brake Switch

57 Orange - Allways hot power

58 Dark Green - OBDII port

57 Orange - Allways hot power

75 Pink - Key on power

The following PINs / Wires were left in on the RED CONNECTOR to roll your own fuse/realy block, gauges, etc.

9 Dark Green/White - Fuel Pump Relay

10 White - Tach

46 Check Engine Light

50 Dark Green/White - Speedo

Gregski 07-28-2019 11:45 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
Wired up my LS starter (it's an iddy bitty thang) last night and got the engine to turn over by turning the key in the ignition switch. I like taking baby steps and not taking on everything at once, so I will share what I did to make this happen, I know this is super easy, but here it goes if for nothing else to hear myself say it, but it may help someone out:

(battery stays in the OEM location on the passenger side)

1) Main thick black battery cable goes from the negative battery terminal to the front of the passenger side cylinder head. (hole in OEM battery cable terminal had to be enlarged slightly to accommodate the metric head bolt)

[just for completion in addition a skinny black wire runs from the battery negative terminal to the radiator core support, to ground the chassis - that's unchanged]

2) Main thick red battery cable goes from the positive battery terminal to the thick stud on the new LS starter.

[that's nice, but nothing happens at this point, yet]

3) In keeping with tradition, we run a medium thick red wire (yes that is a technical gauge description in my book, ha ha) from that same thick stud on the starter in #2 above to the bulk head black little square box on your firewall by the brake booster. This supplies main power to the cockpit.

[at this point if we was to turn the key, our gauge cluster should light up, but that's about it... oh and our annoying always on fan will start to blow... Joy!]

4) at this point power goes from the battery to the starter (logically that is not necessarily how the electrons flow, but don't tell my Biology teacher, hee hee) and then daisy chains from the starter to the bulk head, and more specifically to the ignition switch on the steering column (no not where you insert the key... but below) ok but still no clicky click on the starter, unitl ... [wait for it] ... until we run the purple wire from the bulk head black little box on the firewall by the brake booster back to the starter's skinny winnie stud. This purple wire is the "signal" wire it tell the solenoid (aka electronic switch) on the starter when to turn ON the starter.

... and that's it folk's aside from the battery cables, it's just a two wire hookup, the red and the purple wires. I know I made this silly but I hope it helps out the OverThinkers(TM)

I blew up my bulk head / fuse block to show you that the red and purple wires are just pass through and do not feed the fuse block directly, I actually like to divorce them from that box and run em through a different hole in the firewall and not the bulkhead.

hatzie 07-28-2019 12:00 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
If you're re-pinning a lot of connections you'll want a decent set of crimp tools...

The most versatile pair of crimp tools in my terminal box are the five cavity two operation Delphi 12085270 & 12085271. They are priced around $100 each but they will properly crimp most of the automotive and powersport connector terminals I've run into... From Packard 56/59 and Weatherpak or Metripak 150/280/480/630 to Molex GT150 and Mate-n-locks on ATVs and Mowers.
The single crimp operation tools are connector specific and just as much money as these tools that crimp the insulation and the conductor in separate operations.
12085270 with three insulation seal crimp cavities and two conductor cavities.
Attachment 1923356
12085271 with three conductor cavities and two insulation wing cavities.
Attachment 1923357

The odd stuff like the old Delphi double width Packard 56 & 59 two-wire and Pak Con two-wire terminals and there's another tool for the Packard 56/59 & Metripak 630 10-12ga terminals but I'd only buy em if you need em. Mine are infrequently used but I needed them for a couple jobs. The customers got to pay extra for the odd tooling I needed and now I have em.

For the Deutsch DTP, DT, & DTM and Amphenol CPC machined pin connectors I use the Daniels Military Aircraft tools AF8 & AFM8. You can get open wing terminals for the Deutsch DT & DTM, Canon, and AMP CPC families that will crimp in the Delphi tools but the eight indent Mil crimp on machined barrel terminals produces a fast zero defect field repair and I don't have to worry about the quality of the terminals. I use the snot out of these tools. I bought them used. Daniels will re-calibrate and repair them for a pretty reasonable fee should I ever need that service.

hatzie 07-28-2019 12:21 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8566368)
Wired up my LS starter (it's an iddy bitty thang) last night and got the engine to turn over by turning the key in the ignition switch. I like taking baby steps and not taking on everything at once, so I will share what I did to make this happen, I know this is super easy, but here it goes if for nothing else to hear myself say it, but it may help someone out:

(battery stays in the OEM location on the passenger side)

1) Main thick black battery cable goes from the negative battery terminal to the front of the passenger side cylinder head. (hole in OEM battery cable terminal had to be enlarged slightly to accommodate the metric head bolt)

[just for completion in addition a skinny black wire runs from the battery negative terminal to the radiator core support, to ground the chassis - that's unchanged]

2) Main thick red battery cable goes from the positive battery terminal to the thick stud on the new LS starter.

[that's nice, but nothing happens at this point, yet]

3) In keeping with tradition, we run a medium thick red wire (yes that is a technical gauge description in my book, ha ha) from that same thick stud on the starter in #2 above to the bulk head black little square box on your firewall by the brake booster. This supplies main power to the cockpit.

[at this point if we was to turn the key, our gauge cluster should light up, but that's about it... oh and our annoying always on fan will start to blow... Joy!]

4) at this point power goes from the battery to the starter (logically that is not necessarily how the electrons flow, but don't tell my Biology teacher, hee hee) and then daisy chains from the starter to the bulk head, and more specifically to the ignition switch on the steering column (no not where you insert the key... but below) ok but still no clicky click on the starter, unitl ... [wait for it] ... until we run the purple wire from the bulk head black little box on the firewall by the brake booster back to the starter's skinny winnie stud. This purple wire is the "signal" wire it tell the solenoid (aka electronic switch) on the starter when to turn ON the starter.

... and that's it folk's aside from the battery cables, it's just a two wire hookup, the red and the purple wires. I know I made this silly but I hope it helps out the OverThinkers(TM)

I blew up my bulk head / fuse block to show you that the red and purple wires are just pass through and do not feed the fuse block directly, I actually like to divorce them from that box and run em through a different hole in the firewall and not the bulkhead.

For a high current connection like the 12ga Red Circuit 2 wire I'd bite the bullet and extract the old terminal so I could crimp on a new Delphi terminal to insert in the bulkhead plug. It's a PITA to pull the male Packard terminals out of a connector but this connection is a wee bit more than slightly critical. Butt splices tend to heat up and get loose over time. Brass Delphi terminals, crimped with the proper tool, do not.

GM didn't put a lot of circuits in the 1973/74 bulkhead plug. The 79 & later trucks had a lot more realestate in that plug along with ATC/ATO fuses rather than glass cartriges... It does take a little body work to fit the larger bulkhead plug tho.

Gregski 07-28-2019 12:56 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8566383)
For a high current connection like the 12ga Red Circuit 2 wire I'd bite the bullet and extract the old terminal so I could crimp on a new Delphi terminal to insert in the bulkhead plug. It's a PITA to pull the male Packard terminals out of a connector but this connection is a wee bit more than slightly critical. Butt splices tend to heat up and get loose over time. Brass Delphi terminals, crimped with the proper tool, do not.

You are reading my mind again...

hatzie 07-28-2019 02:06 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Weatherpak Connectors are not rated for the current a 12ga wire can carry. Even tho Delphi provides terminals sized for 12ga wire the connector itself can only safely carry 15-20A max.
https://www.whiteproducts.com/faqs.shtml

Metripak 150 are rated at 14A
Metripak 280 are rated at 30A
Metripak 480 are rated at 42A
Metripak 630 are rated at 46A
Metripak 800 are rated at 60A
https://www.whiteproducts.com/metripack-faqs.shtml

If you're going to the trouble of crimping on a new terminal just crimp on a Male Packard 56 or 59 and eliminate the extra connection... IIRC the 12ga power wire is a 59 terminal but don't quote me on it.
The bulkhead studs are a great place to connect with common ring terminals and a fusible link.

Gregski 07-28-2019 08:26 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8566435)
Weatherpak Connectors are not rated for the current a 12ga wire can carry. Even tho Delphi provides terminals sized for 12ga wire the connector itself can only safely carry 15-20A max.
https://www.whiteproducts.com/faqs.shtml

ha ha, you are using the page I was going to use against me, so how much current does the purple starter wire carry I thought it was only like 10A? (I doubt GM would send any more juice through the ignition switch under the dash, risking a fire) and a proper Weather Pack connector with 20A rated innards should be more than plenty for it, am I wrong? again not saying what is the max a 12 gauge wire is rated for I am talking about our specific application in our trucks, where I think the 12 gauge purple wire is already overkill

hatzie 07-28-2019 09:39 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Less than that on the purple wire. Probably more like 1 Amp. It's energizing an electromagnet coil in the starter solenoid... basically a big ole high current relay.

If you're using the PCM controlled starter wiring from the LS donor it's probably of the order of 5-10 ma to the starter enable on the PCM and 150 ma to the relay in the fuse-relay centre. It may really only be slightly more than that for the Delco MT starter solenoid S terminal but I tend to pad stuff out the nearest amp for safety.
The only reason to use 18ga wire for the starter solenoid S terminal is vibration resistance. You could likely send the energize current over 24ga wire and not worry about it if you didn't have to worry about vibration and such.

kipps 07-28-2019 09:48 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8566628)
...If you're using the PCM controlled starter wiring from the LS donor it's probably of the order of 5-10 ma to the starter enable on the PCM and 150 ma to the relay in the fuse-relay centre....

Quick question for you.

Is there any problem with running these milliamp loads through the old square body switches? For example, using the stock ignition switch to trigger only relays instead of actual loads?

Reason I ask, it seems that a very small electrical load might not "spark" the gap on a crude switch. But then, if a multimeter can sense the switch, I guess a relay or the pcm should sense it as well.

hatzie 07-28-2019 09:57 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
The old starter wiring is on the hot side.
The Delco MT starter solenoid is a contactor... essentially a big hairy relay to switch a couple hundred amps from the 4ga battery cable through the series wound starter motor.
As long as the PCM is expecting Hot and not Ground it should work just fine. You can use a relay with the coil hot lead off the ignition switch CRANK wire to switch a ground and essentially reverse the output polarity if needed.

Gregski 07-29-2019 10:20 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kipps (Post 8566633)
Quick question for you.

Is there any problem with running these milliamp loads through the old square body switches? For example, using the stock ignition switch to trigger only relays instead of actual loads?

Reason I ask, it seems that a very small electrical load might not "spark" the gap on a crude switch. But then, if a multimeter can sense the switch, I guess a relay or the pcm should sense it as well.

I wouldn't the LS donor engine comes with complete stand alone wiring harness that easily runs on it's own simple fuse box you can make like this:

http://www.lt1swap.com/fuseblock_obd2port.html

just take all the pink wires and two orange wires and off you go, I will be posting my fuse block hybrid design on here shortly

LT7A 07-30-2019 08:36 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Is your wife on vacation or something? I happen to know that you don't have oak flooring in your garage... Thank you for the explanations and demystification of the LS wiring process. I'm enjoying following along. I will refer back to this one it's my turn. In about 14 years, give or take.

LT7A 07-30-2019 08:48 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8566374)
The odd stuff like the... Amphenol CPC

Is this something you would need to get from one of the "neighborhood, outdoor, drive-up retailers"? Or is it available if you get the right prescription?


Good work hatzie, again thanks for putting the information out here for us to use. I'm a big fan of having the right tool to do the job well.

hatzie 07-30-2019 11:18 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LT7A (Post 8567358)
Is this something you would need to get from one of the "neighborhood, outdoor, drive-up retailers"? Or is it available if you get the right prescription?


Good work hatzie, again thanks for putting the information out here for us to use. I'm a big fan of having the right tool to do the job well.

They're 1/4 and 1/2 turn-to-lock HDPE plastic body round connectors similar to some Cannon plugs but not made of metal. I believe CPC is and acronym for Circular Plastic Connectors. The J1939 diagnostic connectors on Transit coaches and over the road coaches are Amphenol CPC.
https://www.te.com/commerce/Document...ish&s_cid=1046

I work on electronic systems on Public Transit vehicles... both rubber and iron tire. I've encountered both the Amphenol and Canon plugs at work. Can't say I love either one but I can deal with them.
The right tooling makes things so much easier. Keeping the actual tool count down when I fly with them is a must. There's still a 3 bag and 70lb per bag limit at check in for Diamond Four Million Milers.

Low Elco 08-01-2019 08:19 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Great write up, although after reading through, I'm now terrified of wiring again!


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