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-   -   Restoring Rusty (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=645440)

Gregski 05-29-2021 02:51 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
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WE NOW INTERRUPT THIS TRANSMISSION REPAIR TO BRING YOU YET ANOTHER STEEL BRAIDED LINE FAILURE !!!

This is now the third line that has failed on me. And I'm not a smart man but when the low pressure side fuel line fails, we know we have a problem. Last time the high pressure side failed and a transmission line failed which I assumed was the high pressure side as well.

What sucks about this is that it is a return home run to the fuel tank, so we got to drop the tank to R n R it, super!

FYI it actually failed above that hose clamp at what appears to be a gentle swoop and not a pinch or kink or it rubbing on anything, and I am just pointing to the line which has the leak just so I know which one to replace, ha ha

Fun Level = * please see the cuss jar *

Gregski 05-30-2021 11:11 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
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so after fighting with the steel braided lines in an effort to just replace the last 3 feet to avoid dropping the tank I decided to ditch the steel braided hose all together, I never wanted to run steel braided lines to begin with, they are more show than go, and if it's good enough for Holley and their EFI kit it's good enough for me, especially for the low pressure return line

and yes we are using a reinforced fuel injection hose and not just a regular soft rubber fuel line

by the way slipping on AN fitting on to this rubber hose is 7.83 times easier than slicing your thumbs up on the steel braided ones, so there's that

and this is my daily driver so I need to get it out of the garage

Gregski 05-31-2021 11:02 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
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so I go to put the fuel line back on the Summit brand barrel style inline fuel filter (I had to remove it to get to the other line) anyway I get the obligatory gasoline waterfall down my sleeve, so I think what the hewk, and I remove the filter to examine it, and sure enough that flimzy rubber O-ring has failed and the filter now leaks like a sieve

now you know how I feel about aftermarket parts, well I went with this one cause it has 6AN standard male screw on ends unlike the OEM one which is metric female, but I will be going back to the OEM with adapters, shieshs this quick RnR is turning into a Footspagh right quick

and take a look at that "filter" it is a wire mesh the size of a quarter, that's it, that's your filter, can you say Good Bye to your injectors?!

Gregski 05-31-2021 11:55 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
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and this is what a civilized fuel filter looks like, this one happens to be a Product of the USA from AC Delco (lets pause in appreciation for a minute)

some will have an arrow marking the direction of the fuel flow, that is important, some of the aftermarket ones can be installed in either directions but once installed you should not flip them around

if the filters are not marked I noticed the welded end is the outlet side and the nicely curved smooth end is the inlet side

Gregski 05-31-2021 11:57 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
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as mentioned before these AN to Metric adapter doodads are required to plumb the OEM fuel filter and this is where you will spend 73.8 percent of your time whilst carrying out an LS Swap Operation aka LSSO hunting down adapters, converters, and flux capacitors

hatzie 05-31-2021 03:20 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
That hose says SAE J30R7. That's just plain old fashioned carburetor fuel hose. Same as GM and others used for carbureted fuel systems through the end of the age of the carburetor. Max running pressure is 50 PSI, intermittent operating pressure is 75 PSI for Continental hose but not all hose meets this spec, burst pressure is 250 PSI. That's for NEW hose.
The SAE has actually downrated J30R7 to use as EVAP hose but it's still just fine for lower pressure non-fuel-injected vehicles. I use it on my ATV, Motorcycle, riding mowers, and other small engines that don't use Vinyl hose.

You want an operating envelope cushion to deal with aging. The actual operating pressure envelope can be reduced quite a lot by age especially in higher temperature environments with higher ozone levels like West Coast cities. If your operating pressures are right on the ragged edge of maximum you won't get much life out of it.

SAE J30R9 hose is the stuff you want for TBI and TPI fuel systems. It's rated for higher operating and burst pressures and is less vapor permeable than the old J30R7 hose. It's what GM originally used on the TBI and TPI fuel injection systems before they went to Vinyl fuel lines in the mid 90's.
My first choice in clamps are constant tension spring band clamps that everyone seems to hate. They maintain constant tension over a wide temp range without over tensioning and smashing plastic hose barbs or crushing the hose itself and loosening up like worm clamps seem to do. German Fuel Injection clamps are a close second choice.

If you're an SAE member this is the link to the J30 fuel hose standards. It's some pretty dry reading.
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j30_199806/

hatzie 05-31-2021 03:33 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I believe that AC Delco filter uses a special GM Fuel line fittings. The end is straight with a ring crimped into the tube that the ferrule rests against with a shoulder for the O-ring.

This guy shows how to make GM Fuel Line crimps and Jiffy Tite transmission & oil cooler line crimps.

Gregski 05-31-2021 03:37 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8927033)
That hose says SAE J30R7. That's just plain old fashioned carburetor fuel hose. Same as GM and others used for carbureted fuel systems through the end of the age of the carburetor. Max running pressure is 50 PSI, intermittent operating pressure is 75 PSI for Continental hose but not all hose meets this spec, burst pressure is 250 PSI. That's for NEW hose.
The SAE has actually downrated J30R7 to use as EVAP hose but it's still just fine for lower pressure non-fuel-injected vehicles. I use it on my ATV, Motorcycle, riding mowers, and other small engines that don't use Vinyl hose.

You want an operating envelope cushion to deal with aging. The actual operating pressure envelope can be reduced quite a lot by age especially in higher temperature environments with higher ozone levels like West Coast cities. If your operating pressures are right on the ragged edge of maximum you won't get much life out of it.

SAE J30R9 hose is the stuff you want for TBI and TPI fuel systems. It's rated for higher operating and burst pressures and is less vapor permeable than the old J30R7 hose. It's what GM originally used on the TBI and TPI fuel injection systems before they went to Vinyl fuel lines in the mid 90's.
My first choice in clamps are constant tension spring band clamps that everyone seems to hate. They maintain constant tension over a wide temp range without over tensioning and smashing plastic hose barbs or crushing the hose itself and loosening up like worm clamps seem to do. German Fuel Injection clamps are a close second choice.

If you're an SAE member this is the link to the J30 fuel hose standards. It's some pretty dry reading.
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j30_199806/

Thanks, I am actually running this 30R14T2 on the high pressure side I believe it's rated for 225PSI

Gregski 05-31-2021 03:53 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
You all won't believe this, so I button everything up and turn the key to prime the fuel pump and I hear a gush of fuel hit the pavement, I'm like Noooo can't be

Yup, a fourth line has failed on me, this time the high pressure hose that runs from the fuel tank to the fuel filter, and I did not touch this line!!!

It is so UNBELIEVABLE I made a video for it, so avoid this AMAZON steel braided hose at all costs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwd68TfculU

hatzie 05-31-2021 04:17 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
SAE J30R14 is the new J30R7. It's an updated low pressure fuel hose spec with the lower vapor permeability of J30R9 and better ethanol breakdown resistance in the spec with the lower operating and burst pressures of the J30R7 hose. Most manufacturers already met or exceeded the ethanol resistance spec in their J30R7 offerings but not the vapor permeability ratings.

The stuff you want on the pressure side is still SAE J30R9.

Gates used to have a comparison tool but I can't find it.

Gregski 05-31-2021 04:22 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8927052)
SAE J30R14 is the new J30R7. It's an updated low pressure fuel hose spec with the lower vapor permeability of J30R9 and better ethanol breakdown resistance in the spec with the lower operating and burst pressures of the J30R7 hose. Most manufacturers already met or exceeded the ethanol resistance spec in their J30R7 offerings but not the vapor permeability ratings.

The stuff you want on the pressure side is still SAE J30R9.

Gates used to have a comparison tool but I can't find it.

Are you serious?

rgunlock 05-31-2021 04:35 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
That is definitely unbelievable! Hate to say it, but if you haven't already I'd replace every last bit of that braided hose on the truck. That could have had a VERY bad ending!

hatzie 05-31-2021 04:36 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Sure am.
https://www.underhoodservice.com/cor...-installation/
J30 is the SAE fuel line standard with R numbers for specific types.
  • R7 is emissions hose. Used to be low pressure fuel hose but high vapor permeability likely makes it illegal in California for fuel hose.
  • R9 is high pressure low permeability Fuel Injection hose
  • R10 is high pressure in tank fuel hose. Submersible fuel line for in tank fuel pumps. Don't use this stuff out of the tank as the jacket isn't compounded for operation in air.
  • R14 is low pressure low permeability fuel hose. Likely released to deal with tightened air quality standards.

Ignore the comment in that article about using J30R9 fuel hose for oil. J30R9 doesn't have the temperature rating for an oil or transmission cooler. It might work for cold oil but not for an oil or transmission cooler at operating temp. SAE J1019 hose is actually designed for that job.

Gregski 05-31-2021 04:46 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8927062)
Sure am.
https://www.underhoodservice.com/cor...-installation/
J30 is the SAE fuel line standard with R numbers for specific types.
  • R7 is emissions hose. Used to be low pressure fuel hose but high vapor permeability likely makes it illegal in California for fuel hose.
  • R9 is high pressure low permeability Fuel Injection hose
  • R10 is high pressure in tank fuel hose. Submersible fuel line for in tank fuel pumps. Don't use this stuff out of the tank as the jacket isn't compounded for operation in air.
  • R14 is low pressure low permeability fuel hose. Likely released to deal with tightened air quality standards.

I hear you brother, I just can't find any J30R9 locally they all point at the R14 just like the dude at the NAPA counter sold me and I told him what I was doing and I wanted the high pressure stuff

hatzie 05-31-2021 04:55 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Yeah. That's one of the reasons I educate myself before getting stuff from the parts guys.
They mean well but they'll also offer you fuel hose for transmission coolers and regular fuel hose for in tank fuel pumps.

You might want to get the spec sheet for the exact hose you have. Manufacturers can and often do exceed minimum specs.

Gregski 06-01-2021 10:18 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
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so I wrote to the seller on Amazon since I bought three hoses from them over the last two years, and I sent them pics of my hose failures and the link to this video, I was not rude, I was honestly concerned for other peoples safety, and they kindly replied and promised a full refund

Rich84 06-02-2021 11:23 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
"Hope nobody hurts"..

I used junkyard factory hard lines with a small piece of rubber at the sender with double FI clamps.

hatzie 06-02-2021 02:37 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
If you bead the end of the tube you don't need to double clamp it.
The ATS Parker Beading Tools are darn nice but the price is pretty dear. Here they are FWIW
I have seen similar bead forming tools made from modified pipe cutters. Depends on your tooling availability and skill set.

The Earls tube beading tools work fine for a few tubes.

SCOTI 06-02-2021 06:20 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8927960)
If you bead the end of the tube you don't need to double clamp it.
The ATS Parker Beading Tools are darn nice but the price is pretty dear. Here they are FWIW
I have seen similar bead forming tools made from modified pipe cutters. Depends on your tooling availability and skill set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxZTe2Rs-X8

The Earls tube beading tools work fine for a few tubes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9hTleI8a9I

Many of us use steel tubing for various lines. Not sure if that EZ Beader does just aluminum or if it can do steel as well.

For the part-time/shade-tree builders, brass compression fittings also work as an easy way to get it done on steel tubing w/o a bead forming tool. Put a ferrule + the male/female portions of a brass fitting together on the tube. Tighten the male/female portions to locate & 'crimp' the ferrule in place. Loosen the male/female portions. Then grind/cut the female portion off as needed using an angle grinder.

The crimped ferrule is left on the tube & the hose can be forced over it w/a single worm gear clamp to keep it firmly in place.

mongocanfly 06-02-2021 07:38 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
dang...that could have been disastrous

daddyjeep 06-03-2021 08:34 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I always just do a bubble flare with a normal cheap flaring tool. I even did a video on it a few weeks ago when I made new trans lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASeGM7FWQng

hatzie 06-03-2021 08:42 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SCOTI (Post 8928034)
Many of us use steel tubing for various lines. Not sure if that EZ Beader does just aluminum or if it can do steel as well.

For the part-time/shade-tree builders, brass compression fittings also work as an easy way to get it done on steel tubing w/o a bead forming tool. Put a ferrule + the male/female portions of a brass fitting together on the tube. Tighten the male/female portions to locate & 'crimp' the ferrule in place. Loosen the male/female portions. Then grind/cut the female portion off as needed using an angle grinder.

The crimped ferrule is left on the tube & the hose can be forced over it w/a single worm gear clamp to keep it firmly in place.

I would think they could do thin wall Ni-Copp and steel brake and fuel line. Just take smaller bites at a time and lube it.

Interesting idea using ferrules as a small tube bead.
I stay far away from worm clamps on hoses smaller than 1". I use constant tension spring clamps and fuel injection clamps for smaller hoses.
I'm moving away from worm clamps to spring clamps on larger stuff like radiator hoses at this point. Toyota has been using them for a couple decades and they don't leak. I hate the locations the thoughtless line workers tend to put the ears at the factory, and I'm not the only one that does, but they can be moved to a location that's accessible so they work for fine the rest of the life of the vehicle.

SCOTI 06-03-2021 09:09 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hatzie (Post 8928234)
I would think they could do thin wall Ni-Copp and steel brake and fuel line. Just take smaller bites at a time and lube it.

Interesting idea using ferrules as a small tube bead.
I stay far away from worm clamps on hoses smaller than 1". I use constant tension spring clamps and fuel injection clamps for smaller hoses.
I'm moving away from worm clamps to spring clamps on larger stuff like radiator hoses at this point. Toyota has been using them for a couple decades and they don't leak. I hate the locations the thoughtless line workers tend to put the ears at the factory, and I'm not the only one that does, but they can be moved to a location that's accessible so they work for fine the rest of the life of the vehicle.

Much agreed on the worm clamp avoidance when/where possible & I prefer the use of the FI style clamps. I haven't found a good local source for them in a high quality material & I have readily available access to SS worm gear hardware so it's more of a default thing.

Gregski 06-06-2021 11:51 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
got sum fuel filter adapter that don't suck! so that I don't have to use 9 yards of thread tape to get those black ones above to stop leaking

hatzie 06-07-2021 07:56 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8929503)
got sum fuel filter adapter that don't suck! so that I don't have to use 9 yards of thread tape to get those black ones above to stop leaking

Knowing what the proper fuel line ends should look like helps a great deal.
Russell makes some good hot rod stuff. I've used their drilled and 1/8NPT threaded banjo bolts to add an oil pressure gauge to my ATV.


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