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Gregski 05-08-2018 08:37 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
and after all that we would have to cut it all up and start over with Plan B, because the header collectors don't run parallel to the floor but are angled down ever so slightly, darn it

so the other side looks more like this after it's all buggered up, hard to tell there's an angle but trust me on this one

MikeB 05-08-2018 08:58 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8257265)
took some pics of the exhaust gasket against the cylinder head for us all to ponder the sealability factor, or lack there of, these E-Street heads have a funny D shaped exhaust port, note the gaskets be square

Looks like someone opened up those ports. Oh wait, I'll bet they are the 200cc version. There are D-port gaskets available, so you should google them or check Summit.

The keys to gasket selection are not to block the head port and to make sure you have at least 1/4" of seal around the header flange and the head's gasket surface. Otherwise you get blow-outs which give headers a bad rap. Exhaust flow is at max volume at the top of the port, so that's the most critical place not to block.

Enough said. I'll stop hijacking your thread.:)

Gregski 05-09-2018 08:00 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
OK, so...

How does it run?

- honestly about the same, not any worse, and not significantly that much better, maybe these E-Street heads are not that much better than the Vortecs I had on there. Also I get the same excellent vacuum at idle of 19" even with the single plane intake manifold. If anything the driveability may be a bit more crisp. I can get it to 4000 RPM in second gear, but I haven't gotten it to 4000 in third gear (it's direct drive in my transmission) cause I ran out of road, ha ha

Did it fix the coolant leak?

- too soon to tell, need at least a week of driving

Did it fix the exhaust leak?

- no, and this frustrates me to no end, so I will try a round port gasket next I think, I also reached out to Reflex Tech Support, we'll see what they say

MikeB 05-10-2018 01:15 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8257959)
OK, so...

How does it run?

- honestly about the same, not any worse, and not significantly that much better, maybe these E-Street heads are not that much better than the Vortecs I had on there. Also I get the same excellent vacuum at idle of 19" even with the single plane intake manifold. If anything the drive-ability may be a bit more crisp.

Your E-Street heads probably flow better than the Vortecs at lifts above .450". However, Vortecs are hard to beat at lower lifts and have great "average flow" numbers from .200" to .450" or so. They were designed to make lots of torque in the L31 pickup truck engine with cam specs of 191/196, .414"/.428.

BTW, I was wrong about your heads being 200cc. Looks like the only E-Street head is 185cc with either 64cc or 70cc chambers. Good bang for the buck.

Have you determined your static compression ratio? That cam would probably like 9.5-10:1 with aluminum heads.

Gregski 05-13-2018 04:43 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
Happy Mother's Day... weekend everyone!

So the "exhaust" leak has been bothering me so I snuck out early on Saturday morning and replaced the square port gaskets with these round port ones on the passenger side, and today (Sunday) I snuck out early 8:00 am before all the festivities started and did the driver side.

Gregski 05-13-2018 04:46 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
here I am comparing the new round port exhaust gaskets (top) with the oval ones (bottom) that came with the Flowtech headers.

I think the oval ones would have been way too tall to cover the E-Street heads flat bottom D shaped ports, but these round ones may just work.

the sharpie outlines the difference, note the top gasket is wavy and not flat so it seems like its off the pen mark, just letting you know

Gregski 05-14-2018 09:36 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 8258443)
BTW, I was wrong about your heads being 200cc. Looks like the only E-Street head is 185cc with either 64cc or 70cc chambers. Good bang for the buck.

Yeah these are the 185cc ports with 64cc chambers so I am quite happy with those specs. However there's some nonsense about them not being able to be run with roller cams. That is not an issue with this flat tapped block/cam combo, but in case I wanted to move them to my other spare roller block... just thinking ahead

also they don't recommend reving them above 5,500 RPM which I don't expect to be an issue on this ol' mouse!

IMPORTANT NOTE: "E-Street Cylinder Heads are equipped with 1.460” diameter valve springs that have been tested to 5,500 rpm with
an Edelbrock Performer camshaft.
DO NOT EXCEED 5,500 RPM WITH THESE SPRINGS. Higher operating speeds may induce valve float
which can cause severe engine damage. Performer RPM heads are recommended for higher engine speeds. Check the spring specs for
your camshaft before installing these heads."

MikeB 05-14-2018 01:42 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8260805)
Yeah these are the 185cc ports with 64cc chambers so I am quite happy with those specs. However there's some nonsense about them not being able to be run with roller cams. That is not an issue with this flat tapped block/cam combo, but in case I wanted to move them to my other spare roller block... just thinking ahead

It's just a matter of selecting proper valve springs for the roller cam you may choose someday. No big deal at all. The main thing is having enough spring pressure to keep the heavier roller lifters in check.

Those round port gaskets look great. I sometimes file them open a little to make sure no part of the port is covered.

***Edit: I just posted a question at Summit asking for spring installed height, seat pressure, and rate. A 1.46" spring installed at a height that allows .550" lift would typically be stiff enough to handle 6000 RPM or more, as well as many mild roller cams. The only thing that makes sense is Edelbrock chose a soft, long travel spring for this head.

Gregski 05-19-2018 10:58 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
well top of the monin' to ya folks, I am happy to report that after almost 2 weeks and over 350 miles of driving with the new Edelbrock Top End (cylinder heads and intake manifold for those of you un initiated, lol) we have no more coolant loss and no more milk shake in the valve covers or on the oil cap

Happy Days!!! I am so happy, it has been a long, frustrating, and expensive and well deserved fix. If I do say so myself.

Thank you all for following, reading, and a commenting (I'm looking at you MikeB), thank you so much for you help!

RDrancher 05-19-2018 12:13 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Well that's good news Gregski! Are you liking the way she runs?

Gregski 05-19-2018 12:21 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RDrancher (Post 8264037)
Well that's good news Gregski! Are you liking the way she runs?

I do like the way it runs, however as I said before she runs the same, so either my ol' Vortecs were that good (despite the internal coolant leaks) or the Edelbrock E-Street cylinder heads ain't all that. I bet the shinny Edels aint all that, and I wish I had me some AFR 195s Eliminators, a boy can dream! ha ha

Full Disclosure: being a perfectionist I am a bit bothered by the valve chatter that starts above 1,500 RPM but it's same as before except before it was masked by an exhaust leak, hee hee, now I can hear it better, I am going to try +.100 longer pushrods after I measure their length, cause that's what Edelbrock recommends for these heads. And if that don't work I am throwing in some full blown Comp Cams roller rockers to see if we can quiet her down.

MikeB 05-19-2018 10:47 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Don't just assume she needs longer pushrods. I'd suggest checking for optimal rocker arm-to-valve stem tip geometry. For info, google "Comp Cams valvetrain geometry."

It's kinda hard to check geometry with hydraulic lifters, but you can use a lightweight test spring to make a very light "witness" mark w/o compressing the lifter. Geometry is less critical with stamped rockers that slide across the valve stem tip than with roller tipped rockers, but still, you don't want to chance wearing down the side of a valve stem tip.

As I recall you have stamped rockers. If that's the case be sure the rocker arms are not hitting the retainers, and that you are not using guide plates with self-aligning rockers.

Also, here are some race engine builder comments on what Edelbrock says about the E-Street heads not being suitable for roller cams:

https://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53337

Many of the guys at SpeedTalk.com are engine builders, head porters, and cam grinders. They are WAY over my head most of the time.

LT7A 05-21-2018 03:57 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Gregski, do you feel like you've noticed any benefit with regards to the lighter weight of the aluminum over the cast iron other than lifting them over the fender? You said the performance feels about the same and, so maybe it's not enough weight change to feel a difference. The owner of the local high performance shop that does some of my work has cautioned me that aluminum heads actually pull energy out of the combustion event in the form of heat. He says that installing aluminum heads without increasing the compression ratio about a point will actually net a drop in performance. If that theory holds, then maybe you have increased flow etcetera, but then were balanced out by that factor.

MikeB 05-21-2018 06:55 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LT7A (Post 8265528)
The owner of the local high performance shop that does some of my work has cautioned me that aluminum heads actually pull energy out of the combustion event in the form of heat. He says that installing aluminum heads without increasing the compression ratio about a point will actually net a drop in performance. If that theory holds, then maybe you have increased flow etcetera, but then were balanced out by that factor.

Very good point, but I'm not sure it's a full point difference. No pun intended.

I have to think the single plane manifold isn't delivering in the RPM range where the engine spends most of its time. But, hey, it sounds like a nice dual plane may be in Rusty's future. :)

If Greg is into black, he might want to jump on this deal:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weiand-8120...MAAOSwzRFaVUXh

I have bought several "scratch and dent" parts (actually new and unused) from Holley's eBay store over the years, and the guys who run the store are very good to deal with.

Or wait until a standard-finish 8120 manifold is up for sale. I got one 3 years ago for (are you ready?) $79 including shipping!

Gregski 05-21-2018 08:44 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LT7A (Post 8265528)
Gregski, do you feel like you've noticed any benefit with regards to the lighter weight of the aluminum over the cast iron other than lifting them over the fender? You said the performance feels about the same and, so maybe it's not enough weight change to feel a difference. The owner of the local high performance shop that does some of my work has cautioned me that aluminum heads actually pull energy out of the combustion event in the form of heat. He says that installing aluminum heads without increasing the compression ratio about a point will actually net a drop in performance. If that theory holds, then maybe you have increased flow etcetera, but then were balanced out by that factor.

That is a good question, the weight difference is negligeable on a 2 ton truck, it's like throwing a pool chair off of a Titanic, ha ha.

I think I may have actually decreased compression by following Edelbrocks instructions and mounting a .041 compression head gasket rather than the .028 the General had me install for the Vortec heads. But again very small potatoes. I recon Edels reasoning is if you buy these new heads most likely you had a block rebuilt and they decked it a few mil so the gasket is to compensate for piston height / quench area etc. I'm no expert just regurgetating what I read on the InterWebs.

I have not tunned the bejezus out of this new engine top end configuration yet on the account of the valve train noise, I think once I have proper rocker/pushrod geometry I will feel more comfortable pushing the engine a bit more.

Stay tuned a Dyno Test is on the horizon.

Gregski 05-21-2018 08:47 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 8265623)
If Greg is into black, he might want to jump on this deal:https://www.ebay.com/itm/Weiand-8120...MAAOSwzRFaVUXh

Thanks, Mike, if you were to read this thread in its entirety and I don't suggest you do, no one is, ha ha you would see that The Greg had a Weiand intake manifold already and was very dissatisfied with the machining and sold it on Craigslist to some dude who was going to mount it on his boat engine, I took that as using it as a boat anchor, ha ha

MikeB 05-21-2018 11:38 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 8265681)
TThe Greg had a Weiand intake manifold already and was very dissatisfied with the machining...

I've had four of them over the years, the first probably made in the USA in the early 90s. What a concept! The next two were machined OK, but had rough castings. The last one is an 8121 Vortec manifold I have on my truck's 355. It has a very nice casting.

I like the the Weiand 812x series because they have more modern ports than comparable Edelbrock Performer and EPS. But the Edelbrocks do have nicer, or at least more consistent, castings for sure. Hard to beat that 7101 Performer RPM in a 350-406. It's possibly the best aftermarket small block manifold ever made.

As for head gaskets, yes, a .028" composition gasket would raise compression a little (approx 0.3) and lower the quench height. But I don't know if any gains would be worth the cost and effort.

Gregski 06-06-2018 10:58 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
5 Attachment(s)
Parts...

So bought two different style push rod geometry measurement tools, and .100" longer pushrods (per Edelbrock's recommendation) these are cheap Summit brand but they got decent reviews and I just want to see if the noise will subside with longer rods

one is still being shipped so not shown below

Gregski 06-06-2018 11:01 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
Parts cont...

as well as a two pack of Edelbrock screw in replacement rocker studs (one of mine came stripped but I made it work) and some Summit brand tall valve covers in case I end up going to full roller rockers...

Gregski 06-08-2018 11:53 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
so the adjustable push rod checker came in finally

Gregski 06-08-2018 11:56 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
3 Attachment(s)
it's Friday and I am off today, so with these two different style pushrod length, and valve train geometry checkers as well as infinite YouTube wisdom I am armed with all I need to get rid of that rocker chatter / noise

rusty76 06-09-2018 03:55 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Good luck. You got this.

Gregski 06-10-2018 10:02 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rusty76 (Post 8278100)
Good luck. You got this.

Thank you bud, you are always very positive and supportive.

Gregski 06-10-2018 10:06 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
OK, let me start off by saying there are Two Schools of Thought when it comes to proper pushrod length and valve geomety.

1. One says the rocker should leave a mark in the center of the valve stem.
  • if the mark is above horizontal center line (and closer to the intake manifold) then the pushrod is too short
  • if the mark is below the horizontal centerline (closer to the exhaust manifold) then the pushrod is too long

2. The other says no no no, that's not how you do it, because the rocker pivots on a fixed point therefore travels at an arch.

Gregski 06-10-2018 10:16 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
2 Attachment(s)
so to prepare for this surgery you take off the spark plug cables off the plugs and remove the spark plugs, this will allow you to rotate the engine much easier, not having to fight the compression, you also remove the valve covers and loosen up at least two rocker arm stud nuts (one intake one exhaust) so you can mark the tip of the valve stem

one way to find that mark is to use an Easy erase marker (instead of a Sharpy)


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