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-   -   Restoring Rusty (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=645440)

rich weyand 03-03-2015 02:17 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Titomars (Post 7073951)
All truck or car brake systems with a dual reservoir has a proportioning valve.
JB3 = 1 inch thick rotors and 11x2 shoes
JB5 = 1.25 inch rotors and 11.15 X 2.75 inch shoes
Both use the same master cylinder bendix to bendix or moraine to moraine and both use the same prop valve

I'm not going to argue with you now! ;)

I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with his existing master cylinder, because small reservoir in the front looks wrong. Unless the lines are reversed as well....

craig113 03-03-2015 02:21 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
1 Attachment(s)
The large bowl of the MC is the primary braking system, front..

rich weyand 03-03-2015 02:26 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Looking at this replacement proportioning valve, the larger fittings are for the rears.

http://www.carolinaclassictrucks.com...rtioning-valve

I think the lines may have been reversed on gregskis to match the reversed reservoirs. Or maybe it doesn't matter which reservoir is where, as long as the lines are hooked up correctly, and since they're different sixes, that's hard to bugger up.

Titomars 03-03-2015 02:29 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7073954)
Now going back and looking at your pics, you have different sized lines, but they are off the front of the master cylinder, which I think now should be to the fronts.

I'm confused.

Discs as they wear use a lot of fluid. Got that. The actual flow to and from the rears as you apply and release the brakes is higher, because the disc pistons hardly move in and out at all, whereas the rear pistons do. Got that. Larger reservoir is for the fronts, so as they wear and the pistons move out and the calipers have to fill up with fluid, they don't suck the reservoir dry. Got that.

But your setup looks confused. Or is it just me? Does your proportioning valve have a colored stripe on it? That is a GM identifier for which one it is. I think you should also track down which lines go where. Getting this right is important.

Line size is not that important to us. It is one trick factory engineers used back when these were built to balance the brake system. Nut size is. The different nut size is so someone does not hook the lines up wrong. This next part is assumed the brakes are adjusted per spec. and working as designed.
Actually a caliper piston requires less pressure to provide the same clamping force of a wheel cylinder. So with the same pressure as drums it equals more clamping force. But it does actually travel about the same as a wheel cylinder. caliper pistons on a floating caliper are required to back off (zero pressure) the caliper needs room to float. So there is actually a slight air gap between pad and rotor. A wheel cylinder by design are required to be tight against the shoe or too much fluid is required via pedal travel to get them in an applied state. this is accomplished via a residual valve usually in the master cylinder.
it keeps the drum line charged with a 2 to 4 lb residual line pressure to keep those wheel cylinders charged so when applied they don't move as much as you may think. drum brakes in good order will use about the same fluid volume as discs in good order.

rich weyand 03-03-2015 02:31 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
I just went out and looked at mine, and the larger line is definitely on the smaller reservoir.

GREGSKI: I think that Autozone unit will work fine, as long as you understand that the lines are going to switch front/back on the MC, so the larger line will now go on the back, in order to keep the larger line on the smaller reservoir. No biggie: they will only attach one way.

rich weyand 03-03-2015 02:38 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Titomars (Post 7073967)
Line size is not that important to us. It is one trick factory engineers used back when these were built to balance the brake system. Nut size is. The different nut size is so some does not hook the line up wrong. This next part is assumed the brakes are adjusted per spec. and working as designed.
Actually a caliper piston requires less pressure to provide the same clamping force of a wheel cylinder. So with the same pressure as drums it equals more clamping force. But it does actually travel about the same as a wheel cylinder. caliper pistons on a floating caliper are required to back off (zero pressure) the caliper needs room to float. So there is actually a slight air gap between pad and rotor. A wheel cylinder by design are required to be tight against the shoe or too much fluid is required via pedal travel to get them in an applied state. this is accomplished via a residual valve usually in the master cylinder.
it keeps the drum line charged with a 2 to 4 lb residual line pressure to keep those wheel cylinders charged so when applied they don't move as much as you may think. drum brakes in good order will use about the same fluid volume as discs in good order.

OK, there I don't agree with you. Leading-shoe drum brakes grab like anything with less pressure than disks. Back in the day, you had Hemi Cudas with four-wheel drum brakes, with double-leading-shoe brakes in the front, and they were manual brakes. They grabbed like anything. But disk brakes are always power, because they take a lot more hydraulic pressure. The leading shoe design uses the cars own motion to pull the shoe into harder contact as they are applied.

BTW, I do think you are right that the line sizes are just to make it easy to get them hooked up right. Like using different electrical connectors. I think either size line is sufficient for either set, it's just to keep them straight.

Titomars 03-03-2015 02:48 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7073958)
I'm not going to argue with you now! ;)

I'm still trying to figure out what's going on with his existing master cylinder, because small reservoir in the front looks wrong. Unless the lines are reversed as well....

the difference is between manufacturers
Delco Moraine is one way
Bendix is the other way
The lines would be reversed to match the cylinder.
Both of these were used. I would assume this was a supply thing on the assembly line.
Mine the small reservoir is in the rear next to the booster.
With a 454 I definitely have JB5

a Good Man 03-03-2015 02:55 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Very cool work. Have I followed from the beginning. Move on

rich weyand 03-03-2015 02:57 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Titomars (Post 7073978)
the difference is between manufacturers
Delco Moraine is one way
Bendix is the other way
The lines would be reversed to match the cylinder.
Both of these were used. I would assume this was a supply thing on the assembly line.
Mine the small reservoir is in the rear next to the booster.
With a 454 I definitely have JB5

OK, that makes sense. And that's why the parts book lists two part numbers: one for JB3/JB5 (Moraine) and one for JB3/JB5 (Bendix).

I have a 350 but I'm JB5 too, but that's because of the higher GVWR on the K trucks.

rich weyand 03-03-2015 03:03 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
So GREGSKI, the bottom line is that:

1) that Autozone part will work fine.

2) the brake lines are going to reverse to fit the other-way-around layout of the master cylinder.

3) you have a brake fluid leak in your rear brakes somewhere, leading to the empty reservoir. Note my previous comments about rubber age-hardening and shrinking. I would replace the rear brake cylinders on general principles.

rich weyand 03-03-2015 03:14 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7073921)
gvwr 5300

gawr frt 2946 rear 2946

will this Service Parts Identification sticker help? What's a J55 code?

I didn't see the last line first time through. Off the bottom of the screen I think.

Looks from the parts book like J55 was an equivalent to JB5. Not sure why they used both for the same thing.

rich weyand 03-03-2015 03:17 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Titomars (Post 7073942)
Nope not happening. I'll pass on my 45 years of auto mechanics and auto dealer experience. you guys can do what you want with it, but I am not here to get into a pissing match with anyone. I am here to help if needed or wanted and to enjoy the shared love for our machines.

Yup. The goal is to get the right answers, so gregski can get his truck fixed up. I'm doing the best I can to figure some of this out as well. Some things I know more about than others, but I'm usually smart enough to keep my mouth shut when I'm not sure of what I'm talking about. Usually.

Titomars 03-03-2015 03:30 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7073969)
OK, there I don't agree with you. Leading-shoe drum brakes grab like anything with less pressure than disks. Back in the day, you had Hemi Cudas with four-wheel drum brakes, with double-leading-shoe brakes in the front, and they were manual brakes. They grabbed like anything. But disk brakes are always power, because they take a lot more hydraulic pressure. The leading shoe design uses the cars own motion to pull the shoe into harder contact as they are applied.

BTW, I do think you are right that the line sizes are just to make it easy to get them hooked up right. Like using different electrical connectors. I think either size line is sufficient for either set, it's just to keep them straight.

really ? drum brakes do not out perform disc brakes never will. The secret with that cuda was probably huge drum brakes or large diameter wheel cylinders in front to stop that elephant. I am not a Mopar fan but had many friends with them. I don't recall seeing drum drum on any of the 70's High performance E-Bodies. But I will take your word on anything Mopar. Disc brakes do require more effort I did not say they didn't we were not talking about pedal effort we were talking fluid volume and I was comparing line pressures not pedal effort. ... at least I thought that. The same pressure against a 3 inch dia piston will always result in more force than a 7/8 piston. Discs require more effort at the pedal because leading shoe technology is a sort of assist from the very design. Where as discs are pure simple clamping force. Disc brakes do not require power assist and there are many examples of non-power assist disc brake cars. I have owned more than a few and they all stopped just fine without power assist. The power assist is advantageous when you have a heavy weight vehicle like a 4 to 5k car or truck. Actually I have an 81 Jeep CJ7 that has Delco disc brakes no power assist and weighs damn near 4k and it stops on a dime. Sorry Bro I am not trying to argue with you, really I'm not. I think we were not on the same page with line pressure and pedal effort.

Titomars 03-03-2015 03:30 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7073990)
Yup. The goal is to get the right answers, so gregski can get his truck fixed up. I'm doing the best I can to figure some of this out as well. Some things I know more about than others, but I'm usually smart enough to keep my mouth shut when I'm not sure of what I'm talking about. Usually.

I hear that I am the same way. ;)

rich weyand 03-03-2015 04:14 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Yeah, so I don't think we're really much in disagreement any more. Now that I did some reading and got some misconceptions on my end straightened out. I never said drum brakes outperformed disks. Fade resistance alone due to better cooling is a big deal in favor of disk brakes. ABS is nice. So is traction control on a FWD car. Front disks with rear drums is very popular with manufacturers, because drums are cheaper due to not requiring a separate parking brake mechanism. And I should have said factory-supplied disk brakes are ALMOST always power.

Here's where we may differ a bit. I agree with this: "Discs require more effort at the pedal because leading shoe technology is a sort of assist from the very design. Where as discs are pure simple clamping force." But I think drums also require less line pressure under heavy braking. One of the jobs of the combination valve is to hold back the brake pressure to the rears to keep them from locking up once line pressure gets high enough for the leading shoes to start to pull themselves in, while continuing to give full pressure to the front disks. So we may still disagree a bit there. Doesn't matter. Neither of us designs brake systems for a living.

Anyway, I think we have things figured out for gregski to proceed, which is the goal! And I was on the wrong track, so I thank you for stepping in there before I stepped in it any further.

Oh, here's one of those Mopar hemi cars with factory four-corner manual drums. Yikes. Just don't try to stop it a second time for several minutes....
http://www.rkmotorscharlotte.com/sal...Cuda/133019#!/

rich weyand 03-03-2015 04:16 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
OK, gresgski, we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. :D

Chaplain 03-03-2015 09:24 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Good Lord. That was intense.

greg64 03-03-2015 10:14 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Titomars (Post 7073931)
Seems perfectly correct to me.
The larger reservoir is for the disc brake side of a disc/drum setup always.
the caliper pistons displace more volume than drum wheel cylinders.

Wow, I'm way late to this brake discussion, but I'll also back Titomars and say this is correct. Large reservoirs are for discs. The smaller diameter line goes to the front brakes.

Titomars 03-03-2015 11:37 AM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7074006)
Oh, here's one of those Mopar hemi cars with factory four-corner manual drums. Yikes. Just don't try to stop it a second time for several minutes....
http://www.rkmotorscharlotte.com/sal...Cuda/133019#!/

Damn, that's one insanely expensive car. For that kind of cash I'd rather have an exotic like a Ferrari or even a Pantera with change! ;) But that's me I was never a Mopar fan.

Gregski 03-03-2015 02:34 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7074007)
OK, gresgski, we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. :D

No doubt, great discussion though! Lots of Passion, hee hee

rusty76 03-03-2015 05:45 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Just think I've got manual brakes on my '76.....

Jake Wade 03-03-2015 08:39 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Loving the thread Gregski! I have done many of the tasks you are doing thru the years but its always good to see them again. Your attention to detail, pictures, and wit are very entertaining and helpful to many I am sure.

Gregski 03-03-2015 09:02 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich weyand (Post 7074006)
Oh, here's one of those Mopar hemi cars with factory four-corner manual drums. Yikes. Just don't try to stop it a second time for several minutes....
http://www.rkmotorscharlotte.com/sal...Cuda/133019#!/

SOLD ~ Well there you have it the story of my life, hour late and $249,899 short

Gregski 03-03-2015 09:10 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaplain (Post 7074102)
Good Lord. That was intense.

Yeah you would think I said "Ford makes the best trucks!" or something, just kidding people, just joking

greg64 03-03-2015 09:19 PM

Re: Restoring Rusty
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregski (Post 7074907)
SOLD ~ Well there you have it the story of my life, hour late and $249,899 short

Geez, a nice car to be sure, but 250 grand? No car is worth that to me.


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