Complete T5 swap thread - one way to skin the cat

[RdoubleU]

Thanks for the follow-up Jocko, you've been a big help with all your posts and along with the How To for your experience

I was able to source a Camaro T5 main case with the .73 OD and a S10 rear shaft so that is the route I am going and believe the improved OD is going to work out well for my motor and gear setup. As Jocko mentioned .86 is almost not worth the trouble and another option I found was a .63 OD but the rpm would have been too low at legal cruising speeds for a carb'd motor to avoid stuttering

I have been working behind the scenes with Lugnutz and we have both contacted some very knowledgeable people with a lot of accurate data under their belt from swaps and conducting business around the T5

So what Lugnutz says is true, just do your due diligence and research and you will be able to weed out the Lies from the Facts. I now know too much about T5's

[brokenspoke]

I read it on the internet so it has to be true

[BAT]

So the million dollar question is how do I tell what I actually have it I can not rely on the tag? I actually have 3 of these in the shop and sure would be nice to know what they really are.

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by BAT

So the million dollar question is how do I tell what I actually have it I can not rely on the tag? I actually have 3 of these in the shop and sure would be nice to know what they really are.

Here is what I did - quick and easy and probably accurate enough to help decide what the 1st and OD gears are.

1. With the tranny out of the vehicle, shift it into 5th gear.
2. Place tape on the input and output shaft and mark each shaft with a line at the 12 o'clock position.
3. Hand turn the output shaft (tailshaft) exactly one turn.
4. Look to see how far the input shaft turned. If more than 3/4 turn then the OD gear is 0.86 (although 0.78 is also possible in a Ford tranny), very very close to 3/4 turn would be the 0.72 OD gear. A 0.63 OD would be midway between 1/2 and 3/4 turns.
5. Do the same procedure with the shifter in 1st gear, but you must keep a closer eye on the input shaft so you don't miss a turn. You can improve accuracy in calculating 1st gear by turning the tailshaft 10 complete revolutions, and then dividing the input shaft revolutions by a factor of 10. i.e. 10 tailshaft turns caused 40 input shaft turns, so 40/10= 4, so you have a 4.03 1st gear.

I told a tranny shop what the tooth count was on the input shaft gear and a few other gears, and he told me what I had by doing some math. Sorry, but I don't know what his method was.

[Lugnutz65]

OK, so I now have a way to calculate 1st and 5th gear ratios if you already have the case open.

There will be 2 rows of gears. One row (gears A, B, and C) will be in line with the input and output shafts. The second row (X, Y, and Z)will be lower down in the case and slightly over towards the passenger side.

Please refer to the photo below which shows the inside of my T5. I showed a version of this photo to a tranny shop. He made calculations and told me what the gears were for 1st and 5th.

Follow this procedure:
X divided by A times B divided by Y = 1st gear ratio
which is 37 divided by 21 times 32 divided by 14 = 4.03 first gear

For 5th gear:
X divided by A times C divided by Z = 5th gear ratio
which is 37 divided by 21 times 25 divided by 51 = 0.86 fifth gear

[dantimdad]

A little background before I ask a question: My truck had a T5 in it when I bought it. It worked perfectly. I tore the truck down completely and am doing a frame off restomod.

Now, I am about to reassemble the drive train. There is no adapter plate on the trans to bellhousing.

Why does it work well? I thought you had to have a plate.

I am going to reassemble it just like it was. I am just curious.

Oh, the trans number says it's out of an 86 Camaro.


Steven

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by dantimdad

A little background before I ask a question: My truck had a T5 in it when I bought it. It worked perfectly. I tore the truck down completely and am doing a frame off restomod.

Now, I am about to reassemble the drive train. There is no adapter plate on the trans to bellhousing.

Why does it work well? I thought you had to have a plate.

I am going to reassemble it just like it was. I am just curious.

Oh, the trans number says it's out of an 86 Camaro.


Steven

I am a student of the T5, and not a tranmission expert. However, as I read, I am amazed at some of the new things I learn each day.
If your T5 is a world class and has an input shaft from a V8 F body car, then it will not need the plate adapter (I think ).

I have also seen non world class replacement input shafts that are shorter and can be swapped for the original S10 input shaft to make the S10 NWC tranny bolt right up to the original bellhousing.

I would think that whoever installed your T5 knew these tricks and decided against using the adaptor plate, but used other options that work as well.

Just curious, does your T5 use a center hole spacer to adapt from a 5 and 1/8" hole to a 4 and 11/16" hole?

[oldtrux]

the camaro/f body t5 has the perfect length input shaft and does not need an adapter plate.the t5's that need an adapter plate are out of an s10 (longer shaft)the f body world class t5's are from 88-92

[jocko]

oldtrux is correct. F-body T5s need no adapter to accomodate input shaft length - however, if you want to fit them into a bench seat truck, it requires and S10 tailshaft housing in order to have the stick come through the floor in the proper location, that's all. An F-body WC T5 with an S10 tailshaft housing is the ideal combo that requires the least modifications to install. But, most folks can't afford to buy 2 transmissions to make 1 and the S10 tailshaft housings are getting harder and harder to come by. So, on a truck that won't be flogged, installing an S10 trans, which is normally not a WC (although they did make some WC S10 transmissions, '93, I believe) with a spacer plate is the most cost effective approach. If you have buckets, you can install an F-body T5 without any changes at all, no problema.

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by jocko

So, on a truck that won't be flogged, installing an S10 trans, which is normally not a WC (although they did make some WC S10 transmissions, '93, I believe) with a spacer plate is the most cost effective approach. If you have buckets, you can install an F-body T5 without any changes at all, no problema.

The 92 and earlier S10 T5 trannys are all NWC.
The 93 through 95 S10 T5 trannys are WC BUT they all had the FORD case design and will not bolt to the Chevy factory bell.
Like Jocko said, a WC T5 with the correct S10 tailhousing will need to be a hybrid.

[brokenspoke]

Originally Posted by Lugnutz65

The 92 and earlier S10 T5 trannys are all NWC.
The 93 through 95 S10 T5 trannys are WC BUT they all had the FORD case design and will not bolt to the Chevy factory bell.
Like Jocko said, a WC T5 with the correct S10 tailhousing will need to be a hybrid.

I have a S 10 WC t-5 with a Chevy bolt pattern

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by brokenspoke

I have a S 10 WC t-5 with a Chevy bolt pattern

Yes, I will retract my earlier statement about the S10 not having a WC tranny. Apparently some did. I am again the victim of wrong info that I have read on the web. Jocko says his 93 S10 T5 is a WC also. I am planning a web page on my BLOG that will contain helpful info for folks who have questions about the T5. I just bought a 1988 V8 Camaro WC T5. I'm posting photos on my BLOG that show it side by side with a GMC S15 NWC T5 just so people can see the differences.
Posted via Mobile Device

[brokenspoke]

Originally Posted by Lugnutz65

Yes, I will retract my earlier statement about the S10 not having a WC tranny. Apparently some did. I am again the victim of wrong info that I have read on the web. Jocko says his 93 S10 T5 is a WC also. I am planning a web page on my BLOG that will contain helpful info for folks who have questions about the T5. I just bought a 1988 V8 Camaro WC T5. I'm posting photos on my BLOG that show it side by side with a GMC S15 NWC T5 just so people can see the differences.
Posted via Mobile Device

One thing I have learned is nothing suprises me about the t -5

[jocko]

My trans is an original 93 S10 WC, and it does not have the ford bell pattern.

Bottom line is the buyer needs to educate themselves sufficiently before they buy to know what it is they are looking at and looking for - and not just rely on numbers. Numbers can mislead and resources are obviously not always correct.

To reiterate what's in the beginning of the thread, if T5 shopping, it's a good idea to understand the following concepts:

- WC vs non-WC and how to identify the difference visually (and whether or not that's even important to you - to me, it was not, but I got lucky).
- S10 vs F-body tailshaft housing and how it affects shifter location
- S10 vs F-body input shaft length (S10 T5 presents a problem, but it's easily solved with a spacer)
- Speedo: mech or electronic - I tried to make sure the trans I bought had a mech speedo connection. The alternative can be resolved, but it takes a little work, that's all.
- available 1st gear and o/d ratios and what they are worth to you (.72 vs .86, etc).

Those are the basics of T5 shopping, any can be made to work, but some present more problems than others. Not all 93 WC S10 trannys had the Ford bell pattern yet - so, did the factory cut over mid-year? Or some other weirdness? Who knows, but the bottom line is to know what you need by gathering as much info as you can (without believing it blindly) so you can shop informed - and avoid surprises later when you're assembling the combo.

[BAT]

Originally Posted by jocko

- Speedo: mech or electronic - I tried to make sure the trans I bought had a mech speedo connection. The alternative can be resolved, but it takes a little work, that's all.

My truck came with a F body T-5 and a S10 tail housing, the issue here is that the speedo gear too far back for the S10 housing. This is easily resolved by making a shim and moving the gear forward (7-1/2" from the end). I just did this yesterday and works great.

I now have a spare NWC T-5 with mechanical speedo gear/electronic tail housing as well as a full NWC w/mechanical out that will be showing up in the classifieds shortly.

[Dano0579]

I am wanting to put a Borg Warner T5 5 speed transmission in my 62 Chevy truck. Does anyone close to Alabama have one for sale? I have looked in the classifies and could not find one. Thanks

[dantimdad]

Check Pitts in Athens.

They have a ton of manual trans in a shed by the office.

Steven

[Dano0579]

Originally Posted by dantimdad

Check Pitts in Athens.

They have a ton of manual trans in a shed by the office.

Steven

Thanks dantimdad, I will call them tomorrow.

[66 C10 383]

Speaking of verifying, I need to verify the info I have is correct.

I've got a Tremec Aftermarket T56 which was designed by Borg Warner to be a replacement for the F-body T5 before all the TKO's and such came about. It bolts to the same bell that fits an f-body T5. I believe these are also the same as the Muncie 4 speed bells, correct?

Is the stock 66 C10 (6 cyl motor currently) bellhousing center hole the same as both these other bells? I think I read the other 4 attaching bolt holes are the same. I know the 6 cyl bell will also fit the small block engines.

If so, then my aftermarket T56 should just bolt right in. I do plan on removing the bellhousing crossmember using just the bell and adding a rear crossmember due to the added weight (at least 150 lbs) of the T56.

Here's a couple pics of what I have.

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...86-000-011.jpg

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...rmarketT56.jpg


Thanks for any clarification.

Doug

[LVPhotos]

Mine has '85 V-8 Trans AM with s-10 tailshaft and a s-10 Hurst shifter. The fullsize truck is straight. Mine does touch in 2and4.

[silversnail86]

Mine ride about 3 inches off the seat in 2nd and 4th and always hits the person riding in the middle when I put it in reverse. But I like the shifts and the looks. just a hurst shifter welded on a cut s10 shifter.

( i did take the auto shifter off and covered the holes in the stick shifter.

[RdoubleU]

Thanks guys - good info on the shapes of Hurst options and hitting the seat

I was trying to find someones input on these Hurst Model #'s:
- Hurst chrome stick 538-6900- 13.5" tall: http://www.core-shifters.com/servlet...-Chrome/Detail

- Hurst chrome stick 538-4331- 16.5" tall (the tallest one Hurst makes) : http://www.core-shifters.com/servlet...16.5%22/Detail

Or just stick with the Double Bend Lokar if it works, just was hoping for a long term update from Jocko on this one

[Lugnutz65]

Originally Posted by RdoubleU

Thanks guys - good info on the shapes of Hurst options and hitting the seat

I was trying to find someones input on these Hurst Model #'s:
- Hurst chrome stick 538-6900- 13.5" tall: http://www.core-shifters.com/servlet...-Chrome/Detail

- Hurst chrome stick 538-4331- 16.5" tall (the tallest one Hurst makes) : http://www.core-shifters.com/servlet...16.5%22/Detail

Or just stick with the Double Bend Lokar if it works, just was hoping for a long term update from Jocko on this one

It's about 2 weeks away, but I'm gonna look at options at the Charlotte Motor Speedway Auto Fair (April 4 - 7). I will post pics after I get back. I have no doubt there will be lots of vendors with many options to choose from.

[jocko]

Originally Posted by RdoubleU

Thanks guys - good info on the shapes of Hurst options and hitting the seat

I was trying to find someones input on these Hurst Model #'s:
- Hurst chrome stick 538-6900- 13.5" tall: http://www.core-shifters.com/servlet...-Chrome/Detail

- Hurst chrome stick 538-4331- 16.5" tall (the tallest one Hurst makes) : http://www.core-shifters.com/servlet...16.5%22/Detail

Or just stick with the Double Bend Lokar if it works, just was hoping for a long term update from Jocko on this one

RW,
Sorry slow reply - but here's my 2 cents. I drove it a long time with the Lokar double bend and had no problems (truck has since sold Ha). Yes, what Core Shifters mentions regarding bolt size is correct. I highlighted this fact in post #1 of this thread:

"I used a Lokar 16” stick and 5-speed ball. Note, most t5 shifters you buy are drilled for 8mm metric bolts. So if you buy a Lokar or similar, you will likely need to use 5/16” bolts that pass through the stick and shifter mounting holes and then throw some lock nuts on them because you may find a counterbore/bolt/thread mismatch between your shifter and stick, etc. I used 5/16” socket-head bolts and nylon-insert lined lock nuts on the other side."

It has worked just fine, it never came loose at all. I had no problems. I think the key was using the nylok nuts.

Kinda comes down to what you want the interior to look like - I was contemplating scuffing and painting the stick black and stickin an old doorknob on it with a hand-scribbled 5-speed pattern, so that's why I went with the round stick vice a flat Hurst-type. I ended up keeping it chrome, and round cross-section sticks look a "little" more stock, but if you're going with a race-inspired truck, the Hurst looks good too. However, to answer your question - if you use the part numbers and caveats about the pass-thru design for mounting, it will all work out fine and will last also.

[silversnail86]

- Hurst chrome stick 538-6900- 13.5" tall is the one in mine. I really like it, but passengers complain. Also mine's an 86, I had to massage the floor a just a bit to get the trans in place, just for a reference.