S10 or other frame "swaps", why do this? Pros-cons

[MARTINSR]

Ok I hope this doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, but I see way too many guys doing this "swap" because they think it's "Cheaper" (it's often not) or it's "easier" (it's not) or that it's even "needed" (it's not). I have seen way too many newbes get in over their head with this monumental modification.

I really think this discussion if it goes as I hope it does will become a sticky and remain at the top of this forum for all who visit here will see. I think it's a very needed discussion to clarify some things. Everyone has a different "expectation" of their truck, mine is much different than a lot of other people, but some don't know what that expectation is! They THINK they know but don't really have a clue.

Lets start off with my opinion, and my expectations.

1. First off, what are your expectations, if you are building one of these trucks you need to understand that. What are your expectations, how are you going to drive it? Or better yet, how OFTEN will you drive it to need the modern frame? You may put thousands of miles on it where it's not needed for the one time you think you may.

It's like when I bought my wife's last mini van. I wanted the longer one, the one with rear ac, the one with stow-n-go seats. Then I got to thinking, how often did we REALLY need these things with our old van? Mostly only on our 6000 mile road trips for the larger body and rear ac. But 99.999% of my wife's driving is done around town. She was thrilled with the shorter wheelbase after just a day of driving, she could get around parking lots and such better. The rear ac, we have never missed it. How about the stow-n-go seats? I have a little trailer made from a pickup bed, I use that when I want to haul something. So in reality I THOUGHT I needed those things but didn't, I have never missed them in the three years we have had the smaller van without ac or stow-n-go. What are your REAL expectations?

I drive old cars because I LOVE to drive old cars. I like that they are not like a late model car that everyone else is driving. I was driving every day in a late model performance car, I found that driving this car every day, I certainly wasn't using it's performance and handling, not by a long shot. I also did some studies of traffic and stop lights and fuel economy and time on the road to and from work, that sort of thing. I found that driving fast does NOT get you there any faster if there are stop lights and traffic. It is a fallacy largely created by our seriously distorted image of time. Sooooo, driving leaving a lot of room and watching the other drivers darting in and out of traffic and such is now entertainment to me instead of joining in the lunacy.

That being said, I can drive my 1959 Rambler American with stock 9" drum brakes and 196 ci flathead with a three speed on the column and white wall bias ply tires every single day (and have for a few years) without a single reason for anything more. It is stone stock with the am radio (it did just go on the blink though last week. ) and I do it without a single problem every single day. it meets my expectations, it is all I need. I have a 1965 Buick Gran Sport convertible in the garage for when I want to go out and smoke the tires and yes I have added disc brakes to the front of that car, after all, I had different expectations of it. My wife drove a stone stock '65 Skylark with drum brakes commuting down the freeway to another city for years though.

I LOVE hotrods, I am not a "restorer nut job". My truck once had a mid engine Buick 401 for goodness sakes. I LOVE a nice blown motor monster tired hot rod.

But I drove thousands upon thousands of miles with a straight axled drum brake AD truck, it worked just fine. It met my expectations. My truck will now have a 49-54 Passenger car IFS as the theme is an early fifties period truck.


2. Does a frame swap save work? Is it easier to "just swap a late model frame under it?" That is the common thought.

A frame "swap" does NOT save time or work, it is a HUGE undertaking where as modifying the stock frame is MUCH easier. Putting new modern springs on the rear and a Mustang II front end for example is MUCH easier than doing a frame "swap". One of the big things is you can modify the old frame at your own pace. You do a little every week or month when you get the time and funds.

One misconception with the frame swap is it's making "cab mounts" for the cab, it's so much more than that!

On a frame swap you have to modify the rad support, the bumper mounts, the aprons, the running board mounts the firewall, it takes a TON of modifications to the good old AD that you bought because you dug it, all that gets modified. Leaving the stock frame under it leaves all that stuff alone (well some trimming of the aprons are needed but not much). It is a LOT less work to modify the original frame. Is it as good as an S10 frames suspension? I don't think so, the S10 is much heavier but do you need it that heavy? Again, what are your expectations?

2. Is it cheaper to do a frame swap? Well, I honestly see this as no. I haven't done a study but in just looking at it realistically, by the time you rebuild all the S10 stuff, with the cost of the chassis and with the extra metal and mods and changing over to a different radiator and all that, I just don't think it saves any money. If it does, it's not much. We see a stock S10 chassis for half of what that Mustang II front end costs in the magazine ad and it seems like a deal. But if we look at it with wide open eyes, that S10 chassis has 200k miles on it and will likely need a bunch of money spent on it to bring it up to speed. And if you were to leave all the original tie rod ends and bushings and stuff, you KNOW it should be changed, this costs money that you will be spending after you are driving it a while.

Plus, you can break down the modification of the stock frame into bites you can make along the way as you build it.

3. How does it change the resale value? I haven't done a study on this but I just have to believe a stock framed truck built well is going to be more desirable out there but that could just be my feelings coming thru. How about legality? In your state is swapping the frame then making it the vehicle that once used that frame? Will it then legally carry THAT trucks smog requirements?

Again, I know many of you have made this choice, I am not knocking anyone who did, we all have different expectations. But tell us how now after you have it done, are you happy you did it? Was it as much or more work than you expected? And more importantly, how much experience do you have doing this stuff? A full on fabricator who has done a number of frame swaps and clips of course is going to do it lickity split, but what about the first timer, how easy was it for him?

I just think we need an honest pros-cons discussion to help those who are making this decision on whether or not to do this to their truck.

Brian

[OrrieG]

I have always advocated keeping the stock frame as a place to start for the reasons you stated. I would just add that on AD trucks getting the cab/hood/fenders aligned is hard enough on a stock frame, being off by just a partial degree or 1/4" throws everything off.

Your point about having to rebuild the S10 suspension is something that does not get talked about much and a good point.

I too drive old cars and truck as DD, averaging 7K miles per year. Current one is a 64 Chevelle, oldest was a stock 41 Master Deluxe. The technology is dated, but reliable. These old trucks were mostly sold when American was still predomiently rural to guys that needed to be able to fix them in the field, barn and small garage with common hand tools. I have no issue with upgrading the front and rearend to a modern disc brake set up, adding more comfortable seats, seat belts, AC, V8, auto trans, etc.

But I say stick with the stock frame to eliminate as many variables as possible, especially for the first time builder. You point about having a drivable restoration is good too. Thats what mine was from 76 to 2000 with upgrades as needed or cash allowed. Around here there are always basket case restorations for sale and the majority are aborted clips gone bad or frame swaps that have lost momentum.

You mentioned your updating with a early auto suspension. That was the rodders trick in the 70's, dirty secret was it was the same basic suspension found on Corvettes until 1961 (I believe) so there were lots of factory upgrades you could do.

[akdg87]

On top of buying an already spendy ifs, and upgraded rear suspension for my 56 p/u, I would still have to shell out the shipping cost all the way to alaska. Which runs about 25% the total cost of the parts. Only seemed logical to swap a frame that I can run down to napa or the like and purchase parts to rebuild it. I paid 150 bucks for the 72 c10 frame, aftermarket suspension parts are cheap for these as well, if I wanna go lower it's relatively easy. Takes a little ingenuity to blend this truck together. But that's half the fun.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by OrrieG

I have always advocated keeping the stock frame as a place to start for the reasons you stated. I would just add that on AD trucks getting the cab/hood/fenders aligned is hard enough on a stock frame, being off by just a partial degree or 1/4" throws everything off.

Your point about having to rebuild the S10 suspension is something that does not get talked about much and a good point.

I too drive old cars and truck as DD, averaging 7K miles per year. Current one is a 64 Chevelle, oldest was a stock 41 Master Deluxe. The technology is dated, but reliable. These old trucks were mostly sold when American was still predomiently rural to guys that needed to be able to fix them in the field, barn and small garage with common hand tools. I have no issue with upgrading the front and rearend to a modern disc brake set up, adding more comfortable seats, seat belts, AC, V8, auto trans, etc.

But I say stick with the stock frame to eliminate as many variables as possible, especially for the first time builder. You point about having a drivable restoration is good too. Thats what mine was from 76 to 2000 with upgrades as needed or cash allowed. Around here there are always basket case restorations for sale and the majority are aborted clips gone bad or frame swaps that have lost momentum.

You mentioned your updating with a early auto suspension. That was the rodders trick in the 70's, dirty secret was it was the same basic suspension found on Corvettes until 1961 (I believe) so there were lots of factory upgrades you could do.

My truck's theme is early fifties GM Motorama cars I want every nut and bolt to be nothing later than 54 on the truck. I jokingly say that the front was from a 50 Chevy passenger car but NOW it's a 53 Corvette front end. LOL

On the whole "you can't drive cars like that" story I alway laugh how the highways were full of them 60 years ago, why not now?






Just today I did my annual brake check on the Rambler. It doesn't even have self adjusters! I look at it once in a while throughout the year but pull the wheels off and check the shoes once a year. They still look like the day I put them in three years ago. They don't even have self adjusters! This was a basic model, so you have to manually adjust them. This is a single reservoir master cylinder too. Just check it once in a while for goodness sakes.

I just love driving this old car.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by akdg87

On top of buying an already spendy ifs, and upgraded rear suspension for my 56 p/u, I would still have to shell out the shipping cost all the way to alaska. Which runs about 25% the total cost of the parts. Only seemed logical to swap a frame that I can run down to napa or the like and purchase parts to rebuild it. I paid 150 bucks for the 72 c10 frame, aftermarket suspension parts are cheap for these as well, if I wanna go lower it's relatively easy. Takes a little ingenuity to blend this truck together. But that's half the fun.

You did have a whole different thing. You also could have simply put a clip in too. They can be done nice. (did on on my own AD but changed my mind with the theme and sold it). On the 55-59 the Camaro clip works pretty good, they are actually very close to the same in width so they go on nice.

It seems like it would meet your expectations and needs very well. And you damn tootin it takes a lot of ingenuity! You rock for pulling it off!

Brian

[MARTINSR]

My Rambler today getting it's brakes adjusted.

[IMG][/IMG]

Just incase anyone doubts my story.

Brian

[mr48chev]

I'd have to say there are times when the S_10 swap makes sense and other times when it makes no sense at all. It all depends on the individual situation but I have seen some lame excuses for scrapping perfect stock frames and sticking a worn out S-10 chassis under the truck. Truth be known the stock frame may have had less miles on it than the S-10 donor did.

Viable reasons for swapping:

No frame came with the perfect cab you got off a 2-1/2 ton.

Your stock frame was either rusted out, hacked and butchered or wreck damaged to the point it wasn't prudent to use it.

Not viable reasons or reasoning:

It's cheaper. Most likely the front end is worn out and will need a complete rebuild. along with the brakes needing a complete rebuild. If you do it it's parts and your time if a shop does it you just paid the price of a decent entry level name brand crossmember kit to have that done along with the cost of the frame. If you spring for that 1500 dollar kit from the swap kit guys that killed cheaper right there.

It's easier: no way is it easier as you have to spend hours on end getting all of the sheet metal to fit and line up if you ever get it lined up.

It's quicker: only if you a are a lot faster than most guys on here as most S-10 swaps take just as long as building a chassis using the stock frame.

All the guys down at the gas station say that it's the hot lick to swap S-10 frames under their truck. Ever notice that the guy giving all the suggestions drives a beat up Ford F150 ? My friends or the guys at the shop down town "said" seems to be one of the main reasons guys look into S-10 swaps.

All the cool guys are doing it so I want to. I got slapped on the side of head over that one on another board when I said that was a main reason for the swap.

Viable reasons for not doing the swap
Having to cut and fit your front end sheet metal to clear the suspension and lesframe horns unless you space the cab several inches off the frame.

Having to figure out and build brackets for the running boards if you run running boards.

Limited space in the box as the frame's kickup takes up a lot of the space when you have to raise the bed floor several inches.

You did not have a title to the AD truck as it came out of a farmer's field in
North Dakota 5 years ago and changed hands three times before you got it. Nor did you get a title to the S-10 you bought with the blown up V6 and now the state won't issue a title and you are stuck with a truck you can't title because it doesn't have the original frame under it.

I've got the bottom half of a nice solid cab (roof hacked off) out here that I am seriously thinking about sticking an S-10 frame under as I have no extra frame to go under it. It was given to me as it sits 20 years ago and I have drug it around ever since but it's pretty solid and pretty straight. The problem here is that the supply of two wheel drive S -10 donors has really dried up since scrap metal went sky high and guys have been hunting them for swaps. what used to be a give me 100 bucks and haul it out of here dead truck is now a prize 6 or 7 hundred dollar frame swap donor truck on Craigslist.

[LEEVON]

I had this debate with myself for some time, and all of your logic came into play. If there were one thing that I think drives the majority of these decisions I would guess it is the initial investment of IFS, etc. for improvement to a stock frame.

For me, the overriding factor in keeping the stock frame was originality and re-sale value which outweighed the temptation of a quick and cheap S-10 swap (if that is possible). My original frame was thrashed, but I picked up another for $75 so cost of a replacement was a non-issue.

There are many well planned S-10 frame builds, but there are many haphazardly done (not on this board). How many abandoned projects do you see on Craigslist where the S-10 frame was sourced, body thrown on and then stalled out. It gives a buyer pause to consider what was done to a complete running, driving truck with a frame swap. Ebay has examples of $15K patina rides where the fab and safety work is suspect. Lots of questions to ask and answer.

I like the idea of having a more traditional hot rod / street rod approach where most folks know if you take the time and expense to install a MII IFS and everything that goes along with it, that it was most likely done right. I'm not picking on frame swaps by any means because there are many killer ones here. Plus I'm the one still stuck in the garage LOL.

[57chevyman]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

My Rambler today getting it's brakes adjusted.

[IMG][/IMG]

Just incase anyone doubts my story.

Brian

my '57 has non power drum brakes all around and a brand new master cylinder. they work just fine for me. i drive the truck once in a while around the neighborhood or the local car show.

[alaska gasser]

I have done all three and I by far vote to keep the stock frame and just modify it.

I helped put a Camaro clip under my dad's '59 P/U that I drove to high school in '85 and I put one under my '50 Chev panel in '94. I was very happy with the ease and cost and would do it again to save the stock frame.

Right now, I'm putting an S10 frame under my daughter's '46 International. The stock frame was seriously rotted out from being about half buried in the ground for about 40 years. I thought it was going to be quick and easy....famous last words. Trying to get the runningboards to fit and a radiator since the steering box sits right there has been a royal pain in the A#$$! I would have probably refabbed the rear of the frame if I had known. My daughter also hated the way the frame took up space in the bed, so lowering blocks were added to help change that. The entire suspension is worn by the looks of it, so I'm sure we will have to replace everything there as well.

I just put a M2 frontend under my '48 extended cab and was surprised how quick and relatively easy that was. I found a good deal on it by watching and waiting until it came along. I also live in Alaska and as mentioned previously, shipping is outrageous. They wanted $700 to ship it to me. (Just another example, Speedway motors wanted $13 for an alternator bracket and $34 shipping.) I had my frontend shipped for free to Colorado and picked it up when I flew there on vacation. I put 127 lbs in 4 flatrate boxes and shipped them home. The big stuff I made 49 lb boxes and brought them home as checked luggage on the plane. Sometimes you have to get creative.

This thread is a great idea and I hope folks contemplating these choices can make a better informed decision.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 57chevyman

my '57 has non power drum brakes all around and a brand new master cylinder. they work just fine for me. i drive the truck once in a while around the neighborhood or the local car show.

That is one of the things I want to make clear in this thread, "What are the expectations of the builder?"

That is the biggest thing that goes amiss in this decision.

I have seen many guys do huge work, be it a new engine or a big body mod like suicide doors or something that they really didn't "want" but they were talked into or something without giving it enough thought.

I real good example of this was a co-worker of mine. He had a nice old truck that had fell into his lap, he is NOT a rodder by any stretch of the imagination. So he set out to paint it and bolt it back together. He did a fine job and created a neat truck. One day at work he tosses me the keys and tells me to take it for a test drive. My truck was in a million pieces in the back yard and I hadn't touched it for years. I had a frame that I had done the Camaro clip on sitting out there waiting for me to get back on it. So to drive this AD was really neat for me, I hadn't driven mine in about 15 years.
This truck of my co-worker had a dropped axle in the front, lowering blocks in the back and was all around set up pretty nice. It had a stock 235 with a three speed. I couldn't believe how well this truck drove! HOLY CRAP it drove nice, I didn't think a "stock" suspended truck could ride like that. Mine sure didn't, but I had removed springs to lower it and crap like that. This truck did NOT handle and drive like mine did, it was REALLY nice, it drove like a friggin 10 year old S-10 is what I told him when I gave it back to him. I immediately made plans to get ride of my clipped frame and go back to a dropped axle.

He had fun with his kids (little ones) driving it about a year and his Stovebolt developed an oil leak. He took it around to shops who didn't know crap about these old sixes and were scared of it. Next thing you know he had it at some shop pulling the motor and putting in a 350/350 with Mustang II and a late rear! They screwed it all up, he had nothing but trouble with the brakes and the engine overheating for a long time bringing it back over and over.

For what? He drove the truck around town with his two kids, why in the world did he let these mechanics talk him into this, (he knew my thoughts on the subject).

I ended up with the rear end and another guy at the shop ended up with the front axle (it was a PERFECTLY dropped axle).

There was NO REASON what so ever to do what he did, he just thru money down the drain. And after all the problems he had he agreed with me.

What are your expectations?

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by alaska gasser

I have done all three and I by far vote to keep the stock frame and just modify it.

I helped put a Camaro clip under my dad's '59 P/U that I drove to high school in '85 and I put one under my '50 Chev panel in '94. I was very happy with the ease and cost and would do it again to save the stock frame.

Right now, I'm putting an S10 frame under my daughter's '46 International. The stock frame was seriously rotted out from being about half buried in the ground for about 40 years. I thought it was going to be quick and easy....famous last words. Trying to get the runningboards to fit and a radiator since the steering box sits right there has been a royal pain in the A#$$! I would have probably refabbed the rear of the frame if I had known. My daughter also hated the way the frame took up space in the bed, so lowering blocks were added to help change that. The entire suspension is worn by the looks of it, so I'm sure we will have to replace everything there as well.

I just put a M2 frontend under my '48 extended cab and was surprised how quick and relatively easy that was. I found a good deal on it by watching and waiting until it came along. I also live in Alaska and as mentioned previously, shipping is outrageous. They wanted $700 to ship it to me. (Just another example, Speedway motors wanted $13 for an alternator bracket and $34 shipping.) I had my frontend shipped for free to Colorado and picked it up when I flew there on vacation. I put 127 lbs in 4 flatrate boxes and shipped them home. The big stuff I made 49 lb boxes and brought them home as checked luggage on the plane. Sometimes you have to get creative.

This thread is a great idea and I hope folks contemplating these choices can make a better informed decision.

LOLOL, I love it!

Brian

[MARTINSR]

I don't know why it's such a hassle to send stuff to our friends in the north. Using USPS and UPS I have sold thousands of items on ebay, shipped all over the world, Norway, Japan, Russia, all over the earth, and nothing is as big a pain and cost as to Canada (relative cost). I have stopped shipping there, I have gave up. But that goes for the rest of the earth too, I keep it in the US only just to avoid the extra work. But honestly, I had a few problems that cost me a bunch shipping to Canada, I just don't understand it.

Brian

[47 Fasttoys]

"No frame came with the perfect cab you got off a 2-1/2 ton." Well at least I'm off the hook here.
Rob

[918733]

Pro's
It's my truck and I wanted to do an s-10 frame swap " It would take me longer to build if I would have done the Art Morrison chassis Also a frame swap, because of the price difference"
Con's
Having to listen to peoples opinions about how they don't get the "whole frame swap" and don't get the whole driving a late model truck that looks like an old truck, if you don't get I guess you just don't get it, a frame swap is just part of one way to build a truck, not the only way to build a truck, I don't have a problem with someone who wants to drive a car that you have to adjust your brake on it every so often, I wouldn't want to have to deal with it on a daily driver, if it's a weekend driver great, I'm not gonna on a rant about how I don't get why would anyone wanna drive a car that you have to manualy adjust the brakes on, now I understand that not everyone will finish their s-10 frame swap be it they run out of money, they start something and relize they don't have the know how, or just flat out loose interest, thats how my buddy got his s-10 swap AD and a good deal on it to I might add, someones loss someones gain and he loves it and he's a big street rod, Harley riding build wierd stuff kinda guy. But at the end of the day I guess it comes down to the old saying Different Strokes for different Folks, who knows my next build might be a complete restoration, and not one like some people call a restoration with 24 inch wheels and custom interior, and I'm gonna be honest it will probly have some reproduction parts on it and someone will probly have something to say about that Oh well
Thanks for listening

[ghettoluxury]

For me it is simple. Being unable to find a complete truck with a title for a decent price sent me looking for parts. I found a nice 2 ton 5 window cab with title for $400 and started from there.

1) What are your expectations?
I love driving older trucks, up until about a year ago my daily was my 73 stepside. That truck is a very nice driving and handling truck but it lacks some of the things that my 2000 Z71 that replaced it has. Of course I could still hop in it and take a 500 mile trip without any hesitation but do I want to, No.

With my 48 I want a truck to replace my daily driver that drives very nice, sits with a nice static drop and has all the advantages of a newer truck. Fuel injection is a must and 4 wheel disc brakes makes maintenance very easy. This being said I want to be able to walk into any parts store and walk out with the parts I need to maintain my truck at that moment. Since these trucks are not modern and most of the aftermarket parts are custom or designed from older vehicles, this is not a viable option for me.

2) Does the frame swap save work?
To put it simply, No. I have done frame swaps on other vehicles and it is not as easy as it sounds. You have many things that come into play that would no be there if you used the original frame. After all the new frame was not designed for your truck, it was designed for the body of what it came out from under. There are also things you have to deal with like the depth of your bed or the amount of ground clarence you have.

3) Does it save you money?
In my case yes, I always hunt down good deals. As of now I have roughly $1600 in the truck and everything needed for my swap. After searching for a year for a clean truck with a title in my area. The best deal I could find was $6000 for a stock 1950 with the exception of a drop axle and lowering blocks. When all is said and done I will have around $3000 in my truck with all new parts where needed.

4) Does it effect the resale value?
I do not care! I build things for my enjoyment and could care less if the next guy likes what was done or not. I did not build it for him, if he wants it done differently than have at it.

As far as legality goes I live in Ohio and we do not have emissions in my area. The State only cares that it is a 48 and has a clean title.


5) Am I happy?
For what I want I am very pleased. This is a large undertaking and is not for everyone. I have done 2 other frame swaps and they are not easy by any means. I consider myself a novice and if you are doing it by yourself as I am it takes a long time. I have around a year in this project and still have a lot to do yet, life always seems to get in the way but that's how it is.

[msaintg]

I think the title of this thread is misleading..... NOBODY just does frame swaps! It's a package deal. With the 'frame swap' you get a MATCHING modern suspension (front and rear), engine and drivetrain (if you want it), full wiring harness, full complement of all factory stuff that we don't 'need', but really like.... EFI, cruise control, disk brakes (anti-lock too), 12 volt system, steering column, gauges, etc, etc. Ya, setting the cab up was not fun, but in the end, I have a vehicle that I can get parts for at any auto store AND when I take it into the shop for repairs, the mechanic does not have to figure out "what bastard rotor I pulled off the shelf to make it work". I just tell him EVERYTHING is a 1996 S10 Blazer and he can even plug into my computer port to talk to my unmolested computer. I don't think many projects get 'shelved' due to people getting in over their heads 'because it is a frame swap'. Most people get in over their heads because they are dreamers and could not finish ANY project like this. My project took just 1.5 years to complete (that is VERY fast for a full restore, frame swap, MANY custom body mods, and done on the cheap).... most on here are taking MUCH longer, and not because they are frame swaps, but because they are ground up restorations (and "life gets in the way" excuses). As far as resale value, these trucks are only worth what we put into them... they have no value based on what they were.... they were not rare, fancy, or loaded with options. Resale value on any vehicle is base on the buyers taste matching your tastes. How many $20k paint jobs have you seen where you thought to yourself.... " wow, nice work, but I hate the color". I think putting $50 grand in a frame and drive train that no one will ever see is a waste of money, but hey, that is just me.
final note: Just because you are happy with something old and worn out, does not make it 'as good' as something new, modern or advanced. If that were the case, why does everyone run out and get the latest Iphone?

[whammer33024]

sure, you have to rebuild all the s10 suspension...but that's a lot easier than trying to rebuild all the parts for a stock frame as far as availability of parts and such.

why i'm planning to do an s10 swap? i've owned about 6 s10s...my dad has owned about 20. i drive an s10 everyday as my delivery truck. i really like s10s and know pretty much everything there is to know about them. i really like the idea of making an s10/AD a delivery truck for my business. modern conveniences with the look of a classic.

IMO, doesn't get much better than that. differing opinions is what drives the car world

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 918733

Pro's
It's my truck and I wanted to do an s-10 frame swap " It would take me longer to build if I would have done the Art Morrison chassis Also a frame swap, because of the price difference"
Con's
Having to listen to peoples opinions about how they don't get the "whole frame swap" and don't get the whole driving a late model truck that looks like an old truck, if you don't get I guess you just don't get it, a frame swap is just part of one way to build a truck, not the only way to build a truck, I don't have a problem with someone who wants to drive a car that you have to adjust your brake on it every so often, I wouldn't want to have to deal with it on a daily driver, if it's a weekend driver great, I'm not gonna on a rant about how I don't get why would anyone wanna drive a car that you have to manualy adjust the brakes on, now I understand that not everyone will finish their s-10 frame swap be it they run out of money, they start something and relize they don't have the know how, or just flat out loose interest, thats how my buddy got his s-10 swap AD and a good deal on it to I might add, someones loss someones gain and he loves it and he's a big street rod, Harley riding build wierd stuff kinda guy. But at the end of the day I guess it comes down to the old saying Different Strokes for different Folks, who knows my next build might be a complete restoration, and not one like some people call a restoration with 24 inch wheels and custom interior, and I'm gonna be honest it will probly have some reproduction parts on it and someone will probly have something to say about that Oh well
Thanks for listening

Thanks for your input. I do get it believe me, I just believe that a lot of guys do it because they think it's easier than modifying the stock frame. I think this because on the forums I visit I have seen SOOOOOO many first time posters asking about it like it's about putting a 350/350 in one, and it's a LOT more than that. But they will talk like it compares to a simple engine swap. Do they understand, nope I don't think they do. That is why I wanted this discussion, to get the pros and cons so they could make a better educated decision.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by ghettoluxury

For me it is simple. Being unable to find a complete truck with a title for a decent price sent me looking for parts. I found a nice 2 ton 5 window cab with title for $400 and started from there.

1) What are your expectations?
I love driving older trucks, up until about a year ago my daily was my 73 stepside. That truck is a very nice driving and handling truck but it lacks some of the things that my 2000 Z71 that replaced it has. Of course I could still hop in it and take a 500 mile trip without any hesitation but do I want to, No.

With my 48 I want a truck to replace my daily driver that drives very nice, sits with a nice static drop and has all the advantages of a newer truck. Fuel injection is a must and 4 wheel disc brakes makes maintenance very easy. This being said I want to be able to walk into any parts store and walk out with the parts I need to maintain my truck at that moment. Since these trucks are not modern and most of the aftermarket parts are custom or designed from older vehicles, this is not a viable option for me.

2) Does the frame swap save work?
To put it simply, No. I have done frame swaps on other vehicles and it is not as easy as it sounds. You have many things that come into play that would no be there if you used the original frame. After all the new frame was not designed for your truck, it was designed for the body of what it came out from under. There are also things you have to deal with like the depth of your bed or the amount of ground clarence you have.

3) Does it save you money?
In my case yes, I always hunt down good deals. As of now I have roughly $1600 in the truck and everything needed for my swap. After searching for a year for a clean truck with a title in my area. The best deal I could find was $6000 for a stock 1950 with the exception of a drop axle and lowering blocks. When all is said and done I will have around $3000 in my truck with all new parts where needed.

4) Does it effect the resale value?
I do not care! I build things for my enjoyment and could care less if the next guy likes what was done or not. I did not build it for him, if he wants it done differently than have at it.

As far as legality goes I live in Ohio and we do not have emissions in my area. The State only cares that it is a 48 and has a clean title.


5) Am I happy?
For what I want I am very pleased. This is a large undertaking and is not for everyone. I have done 2 other frame swaps and they are not easy by any means. I consider myself a novice and if you are doing it by yourself as I am it takes a long time. I have around a year in this project and still have a lot to do yet, life always seems to get in the way but that's how it is.

Great info, thanks! A good look at both sides, that's what we need to help people make a good decision for THEM.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by msaintg

I think the title of this thread is misleading..... NOBODY just does frame swaps! It's a package deal. With the 'frame swap' you get a MATCHING modern suspension (front and rear), engine and drivetrain (if you want it), full wiring harness, full complement of all factory stuff that we don't 'need', but really like.... EFI, cruise control, disk brakes (anti-lock too), 12 volt system, steering column, gauges, etc, etc. Ya, setting the cab up was not fun, but in the end, I have a vehicle that I can get parts for at any auto store AND when I take it into the shop for repairs, the mechanic does not have to figure out "what bastard rotor I pulled off the shelf to make it work". I just tell him EVERYTHING is a 1996 S10 Blazer and he can even plug into my computer port to talk to my unmolested computer. I don't think many projects get 'shelved' due to people getting in over their heads 'because it is a frame swap'. Most people get in over their heads because they are dreamers and could not finish ANY project like this. My project took just 1.5 years to complete (that is VERY fast for a full restore, frame swap, MANY custom body mods, and done on the cheap).... most on here are taking MUCH longer, and not because they are frame swaps, but because they are ground up restorations (and "life gets in the way" excuses). As far as resale value, these trucks are only worth what we put into them... they have no value based on what they were.... they were not rare, fancy, or loaded with options. Resale value on any vehicle is base on the buyers taste matching your tastes. How many $20k paint jobs have you seen where you thought to yourself.... " wow, nice work, but I hate the color". I think putting $50 grand in a frame and drive train that no one will ever see is a waste of money, but hey, that is just me.
final note: Just because you are happy with something old and worn out, does not make it 'as good' as something new, modern or advanced. If that were the case, why does everyone run out and get the latest Iphone?

Very interesting look at it, I hadn't gone that far in my head. But again, neither does a lot of guys looking at this. I don't think by a long shot that the majority of these frame swaps are doing everything like you have, not by a long shot. But I suspect that many are. And you are right "frame swap" is misleading as it's more of a "Chassis swap" but no one calls it that so I wanted the best "key words" for finding this, absolutely it is a "chassis swap" and even if only the frame and suspension is installed it is seriously transforming the truck into a late model like driver. And the availability of parts is also a very good point.

But again, what are the expectations of the builder? Yours are clear, are all the guys who jump into it that clear? I don't think so, no where near even close to as clear and collected as you are on the subject.

It's provided you with exactly what you thought it was going to, most are simply put that that clear.

Let's talk about the "availability of parts". I have heard that for years because I am into odd motors, Buicks and old Chevy sixes. I have heard since I was just a kid "If my car breaks down out on the road I can get parts for my SBC at any parts store". My response to that is "What are you going to do rebuild the motor on the side of the road?" In the real world we aren't going to do much on the side of the road, I know I never have. And the only cars I have been stranded with on the side of the road in my whole life have been late model computer controlled cars!

If it's maintained PERSONALLY, I am not saying anyone is wrong, I am saying ME, Brian, I personally feel if it's maintained as most all our cars and trucks are it will get you there and back be it old or new.

And now again, we are all different, some guy who lives in Altus Arkansas with one parts store 15 miles away and then the next 40 miles away and they maybe aren't that good and don't have a big stock, this is a whole different thing. And one each of us should think about.

I personally, I am lucky as heck with an amazing parts store in town a few miles from my home that has a huge inventory that supplies late model stuff for every shop in town (including where I work) and yet had in stock very odd parts for my Rambler! Almost all the brake parts, wheel cyl, master, shoes, I was blown away, brake light switch, all in stock!

The engine parts, LOL ,not on your life. That is a whole different story, that 96 S10 drive train would be a LOT easier to get parts for than a 1950 Chevy, that S10 chassis would be a LOT easier to get parts for than a 1950 Chevy, there is no discussion on the matter!

Some times it takes "moving into the community" of your car, finding out where parts are and just plain getting educated on your particular old car.

That's what this forum is all about! That is what this thread is all about!

But what are the expectations of the builder? To me, not a big deal, I like the challenge and I have the resources many don't. But to the guy in Altus Arkansas that may not be the same.

Brian

[whammer33024]

what you seem to be concerned with is a societal problem. so many people jump into something without proper planning, no matter the situation. its not just s10/AD swaps. how many unfinished project cars are out there? buying an AD truck and restoring it is more work than a first timer ever imagined, i guarantee you that.

it was no different when i was big in the 4th gen camaro scene. you would be amazed at how many people would ask if they can swap their v6 for an LT1 or LS1 engine. seems like a simple pull the engine and swap a v8 in it. its just not that simple and at the end of the day, the usual answer ended up being to sell the whole v6 car and purchase a v8 car.

i'm a firm believer in "learn as you go". you can do all the research in the world and have the most perfect plans laid out, but you can't plan for everything. but that's whats so great about a site like this and many others. you can learn from other people's mistakes. you can follow several people's builds and learn some tips to make things easier. then when you finally start, you can share your experiences that may help someone else.

you and i both know...in hotrodding anything goes. if you have the MONEY, time and ability, anything is possible

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by whammer33024

what you seem to be concerned with is a societal problem. so many people jump into something without proper planning, no matter the situation. its not just s10/AD swaps. how many unfinished project cars are out there? buying an AD truck and restoring it is more work than a first timer ever imagined, i guarantee you that.

it was no different when i was big in the 4th gen camaro scene. you would be amazed at how many people would ask if they can swap their v6 for an LT1 or LS1 engine. seems like a simple pull the engine and swap a v8 in it. its just not that simple and at the end of the day, the usual answer ended up being to sell the whole v6 car and purchase a v8 car.

i'm a firm believer in "learn as you go". you can do all the research in the world and have the most perfect plans laid out, but you can't plan for everything. but that's whats so great about a site like this and many others. you can learn from other people's mistakes. you can follow several people's builds and learn some tips to make things easier. then when you finally start, you can share your experiences that may help someone else.

you and i both know...in hotrodding anything goes. if you have the MONEY, time and ability, anything is possible

Very well said! I have seen so many that seem so out of it, so unattached and they are talking about doing a frame swap! If they get in over their head with the front fenders removed and see all the rust in the firewall and floor at least it's hasn't been cut up and a wore out S10 frame under it done all wrong.

Guys, it takes SERIOUS skills to pull off a nice S10 swap, those who have, give yourselves credit! These people who come without a clue, I just wanted to open the door to other ideas, it seems like the "swap" is all they are talking about.


Brian

[Dan in Pasadena]

EEK!

I'm a reader and there are a LOT of words in this thread.

I'm in favor of the stock frame, period. I totally understand why so many of us update to ifs and all that comes with it. No issue or objection.

However, I DO feel there will come a day (relatively soon) when one of these trucks with "maximized" stock I beam suspension will be seen as the way to go. Dropped axle done properly with rebuilt kingpins and bump steer compensation, modern tie rod ends, power disc brakes, power steering. After all, the early Ford guys keep their suspensions stock, just maximized. They even use finned drum brakes.

All that said, I keep bouncing between Flat Out Engineering's C4 Corvette IFS & IRS versus the maximized I beam approach for my truck. I'm not getting any younger. Gonna be 60 at the end of the year, ugh.

[99monte]

I am so totally undecided about whether or not to do a frame/chassis swap after reading this thread.I have a Canadian 1300 52 chev(complete) in my back yard + 2 49 2 ton potential cabs, and 2 s10 potential donors.I need to narrow down my expectations and make a decision and go for it.I live in the north where you spend an arm and a leg to get anything shipped to you.