points, pertronix, or HEI

[Snake72]

Finishing the engine build on my 72, mild 383. I had posted months ago about the distributor and decided on the pertronix conversion, good reviews from members. Bought the pertronix 1, their coil and wires. While rebuilding my quadrajet, was speaking to Cliff Ruggles from Cliffs high performance and he had nothing but bad things to say about the pertronix, that it WILL fail. He advised sending my points distributor to him and having him build it. I plan on getting a new engine wire harness and now thinking about a harness already set up for HEI, and probably converting the alternator to internally regulated with a conversion harness.

Whats everyone's opinon? Cliff built points, pertronix, or HEI?

[demian5]

"He advised sending my points distributor to him and having him build it."

What is he going to put in it? Run the pertronix, that is only one guys experience.

if it craps out, put an HEI in and be done with it.

If it aint broke, dont fix it.

[Bad70sbchevy]

^ What he said ^

Points will wear out eventually. Just run the Pertronix kit you bought and if it ever dies, just upgrade to an HEI. Do be careful to not leave the ignition in the on position with the engine off as this could burn out the pertronix I (they fixed this for the Pertronix II kits and up).

[jocko]

As much as I enjoy setting points on a recurring basis... for me it comes down to the the unbeatable reliability and performance of an HEI vs the stock cap size with Pertronix. I prefer pertronix if I'm trying to keep the engine compartment looking stock. Having said that, it's hardly noticeable when a GM HEI is in there behind the air cleaner... Comes down to personal preference and tradeoffs. But I have to agree, points are out, and now I have nothing to do with my 1975 Sears Craftsman engine analyzer!

[Snake72]

That's what I was confused about, I'd still have to set, file, and replace points every whatever thousand miles...and with less ignition energy. I think I'll just pick up a GM HEI and prewired engine harness and be done with it. The pertronix can be used for a '71 cheyenne that's on the back burner.

Any recommendations for harness now? AAW, painless? Brothers trucks has some decent looking ones as well, not sure the manufacturer.

[Jcfcamaro]

I'm going with the AAW in mine. Used one in my camaro and it looked factory. Make sure you order the right one as the make several different ones.

[SJLenz1340]

You know what they say about opinions right? Ok, so I had a pertronix and it was on my British sports car. Well it did fail and luckily I recognized signs of impending doom, so back to points I go. Perhaps the point (no pun) is that "when" the pertronix fails where are you in your vehicle? And how will you get home? At least with points (outside catastrophic failure) you can adjust your way home, or pick up a replacement at any auto parts store.

[SJLenz1340]

You know what they say about opinions right? Ok, so I had a pertronix and it was on my British sports car. Well it did fail and luckily I recognized signs of impending doom, so back to points I go. Perhaps the point (no pun) is that "when" the pertronix fails where are you in your vehicle? And how will you get home? At least with points (outside catastrophic failure) you can adjust your way home, or pick up a replacement at any auto parts store.

[Rich69shortfleet]

Originally Posted by SJLenz1340

You know what they say about opinions right? Ok, so I had a pertronix and it was on my British sports car. Well it did fail and luckily I recognized signs of impending doom, so back to points I go. Perhaps the point (no pun) is that "when" the pertronix fails where are you in your vehicle? And how will you get home? At least with points (outside catastrophic failure) you can adjust your way home, or pick up a replacement at any auto parts store.

Pretty much the same goes for HEI and it is (can be) tons more reliable than points.

That said, I've had more trouble with the HEI in my truck than with the Pertronix I or Pertronix II in my other old cars mostly due to foolishly using cheap modules. Trouble with Pertronix = none, ever. The only real reason Pertronix ever fail is almost always due to improper installation. Run the Pertronix and be happy. If you want insurance, carry a set of points with you and you can swap out the Pertronix I for points at anytime if there is a failure. If you switch to HEI be sure to install an AC Delco (the expensive ones!) module and if the unit is used be sure the pickup coil and other electronic parts are in good usable condition. Always carry a spare module in the glove box and you will never be stranded.

Personally, I'd say Cliff is just looking to make a buck. In this day and age I can't imagine anyone recommending points over a good electronic ignition system except in a purely restoration to the numbers situation. Eliminating the need to properly set the dwell is a huge selling point of electronic systems let alone not having to worry about maintaining the physical condition of the points.

For both Pertronix and HEI (and points for that matter) you absolutely need to insure that the basic mechanics of the distributor are sound, that the up and down play of the shaft is within spec and that the housing bushings are sound so that the shaft has no side to side motion. Setting the mechanical and vacuum advance are important, but have nothing to do with how well the electronics work.

[LH Lead-Foot]

Copper wire is not all the same alloy. The same argument can be made for the insulation properties of ones choice of plastic. The big one is the coils primary resistance as the lower it goes, the stronger the magnetic field, hotter the spark. I would use an ACDelco ignition module any day of the week. Common mistakes, adjusting springs to get the right advance curve for your application...it's trial and error. Use a good heat conducting PTFE grease under the module. Don't forget the ground strap under the coil out to the cap...I have seen that several times.

[cleszkie]

The longevity of either Pertronix or HEI modules is directly linked to the state of the electrical system in your ride. Voltage spikes or dips are the killers. Install a surge protector in front of the Pertronix unit, and you will greatly increase the odds of a long life out of the unit. As I recall, Pertronix actually recommends this, and they sell just such a surge protector that is plug and play.

[demian5]

Originally Posted by cleszkie

Pertronix actually recommends this, and they sell just such a surge protector that is plug and play.

They should provide it with the kit!

['68OrangeSunshine]

I ran points for a long time on my 292 L6 in a '68 C/10 Stepside. In 1977, I added a Mallory Voltmaster hot coil. It looked ''Hot''.
Then I tried the PerTronix Ignitor II and Flamethrower II coil. Ran great from 2007 to 2014, then started crapping out at 3000 RPM 60-65 MPH. Engine would cut out, coldmilling at freeway speed until I put the clutch in, turned the IGN switch OFF then ON, slowed down to ~55 then popped the clutch in 4th. [Not recommended for your internal parts, BTW.] I called PerTronix C/S. They said send it in for evaluation. I did.... never saw hide nor hair of my Ignitor II again.
I went back to points for a year. Ran good, but I flunked emissions.
December of '16, I got a 1975-77 L6 GM HEI. Runs better than anything else ever did. And parts are everywhere.
Ignitor [I] will burn out if you leave the key on. Ignitor II was OK while it lasted. Ignitor III's have tach issues.
Go straight to GM HEI.

[70cst]

I have had Pertronix in my C10 since about 2002.

[rsavage]

I have points in both GTO's and I have had no problems. Easy to fix if they close up and stop running except if they are in a 67-72 4X4 with the distributor up close to the firewall. Laying on the motor to change adjust or change points OR an HEI module isn't easy. I just bought a pertronix for the 350 I built for the Blazer. My hipo Fairlane came with a factory dual point distributor. It has a pertronix in it also now. I have never had points or a pertronix fail, but I did have a GM HEI module fail in a 69 wagon I had a few years ago. Backed it into the garage one day and the next day it wouldn't start. I will carry a set of points with me in the Blazer in case the pertronix goes. I don't put a lot of miles on any of my classics - probably 1000 or so on each. Bottom line, I wouldn't run a $50 Chineese HEI, and I don't personally have a problem with points or Pertronix.

[HO455]

Originally Posted by Rich69shortfleet

Pretty much the same goes for HEI and it is (can be) tons more reliable than points.

That said, I've had more trouble with the HEI in my truck than with the Pertronix I or Pertronix II in my other old cars mostly due to foolishly using cheap modules. Trouble with Pertronix = none, ever. The only real reason Pertronix ever fail is almost always due to improper installation. Run the Pertronix and be happy. If you want insurance, carry a set of points with you and you can swap out the Pertronix I for points at anytime if there is a failure. If you switch to HEI be sure to install an AC Delco (the expensive ones!) module and if the unit is used be sure the pickup coil and other electronic parts are in good usable condition. Always carry a spare module in the glove box and you will never be stranded.

Personally, I'd say Cliff is just looking to make a buck. In this day and age I can't imagine anyone recommending points over a good electronic ignition system except in a purely restoration to the numbers situation. Eliminating the need to properly set the dwell is a huge selling point of electronic systems let alone not having to worry about maintaining the physical condition of the points.

For both Pertronix and HEI (and points for that matter) you absolutely need to insure that the basic mechanics of the distributor are sound, that the up and down play of the shaft is within spec and that the housing bushings are sound so that the shaft has no side to side motion. Setting the mechanical and vacuum advance are important, but have nothing to do with how well the electronics work.

Times 2!!! I've got almost 20 k on the base model Pertronix in my Javelin and way more on the GTO. Put the screws and points and a match box in a bag and carry it with you and you will never be stranded. An HEI will fail. One component is serviceable alongside the road the other isn't really. The old 50/50 90/10 rule. (The OE GM HEI's are better quality unit than the aftermarket ones but are much more work to curve.)
The reliability of the high priced version Pertronix units is less than the base version. The company changed hands after the first version was on the market and the new designs are not as robust.

[Pro299]

I had a first gen Pertronix for about two years in a 65 Impala, but it crapped out, so I went back to points. It was a show-only vehicle so that wasn't a problem. After that experience, I got a Mallory HEI, which everyone seems to hate, for the C10. That was about 15 years ago and it still works perfectly.

[mike16]

Ol' Wiggles is in the distrbutor bussness too? I wonder if he even knows how to Use a Distributor Machine or even has one. I have no opinion on points vs pertonix vs HEI but there are already plenty of competent people out there who can modify a points distributor. And I'll bet his learning curve will cost you alot more than a buck....or two.

[ZEKE68]

I read a warning somewhere that you couldn't leave the ignition on for more than a few minutes without burning up the Pertronix unit. Does anyone know this if that's right? Without the engine running that is.

[68c10airstream]

Went to auto schooling in the late 70's. The reasoning behind hei is a consistent repeatable ignition curve. As points wear, dwell changes, and with dwell changes timing changes, So as the points wear, timing retards, emissions increase, performance is reduced.

As unleaded fuel was around the corner along with catalytic converters, egr, etc, in the mid 70's a higher killivolt was going to be needed to fire a leaner fuel charge, hence a bigger more robust coil was needed. Gm's hei distributor package met this requirement.

Probably the most overlooked, misunderstood issue with hei distributors is a crappy ground coming through the intake manifold through the mounting bolt to the hold down bracket and then finally to the base of the distributor. Now throw salt and heat and age at it, or a fresh rebuild and paint everything orange. More than once i went to friends house to fix a no start on a fresh rebuild. Everything orange?? Took a 12 volt test light and hook the lead to the negative terminal at the battery and turn the key on and take the point of the test light and scratch a bare spot on the distributor neck and watch the test light shine brightly because of no ground to the distributor. Ford spends a little more money and runs a dedicated ground to the distributor in the harness in their hei systems.

Only downfall with all of the sbc's is timing still needs to be checked once and a while because of timing chain stretch, crank, cam, and cam/distributor gear wear which all has the effect of retarding the timing.

Ls series engines have none of the wear issues because the trigger reluctor wheel is pressed onto the crank shaft, and the crank sensor is in a fixed location cast into the block. The cam sensor can still be affected by chain stretch, and cam/crank gear wear.

[special-K]

Petronix is made to convert breaker type distributors on vehicles that don't have HEI as a readily available better option. OR... for vehicles retaining stock appearance that don't want points.

The fact is, points are very reliable. I never had an issue with them and have had several issues with electronic. One big difference, if a problem arises with electronic ignition you have nothing. You can limp it home with points...or put that spare set in from the glovebox and get on down the road. The only thing wrong with points is people don't want to do maintenance or put thought into preparedness. And points last so long people could get away with neglecting to tune up through quite a few intervals until they finally get so pitted and closed up it won't run...but you can usually file them and set to get you home. This only happens when neglecting to service your vehicle a couple years and vehicle performance is giving you warnings long before it just won't start. For one thing, the vehicle requires long cranking to start. It's not the vehicle's fault when people ignore the warning signs it is giving.

This was one man's opinion who said bring him your stock distributor to work on. But, if he is a guy with a distributor machine and sets up distributors and rebuilds/reworks them, he knows ignition better than most, if not all, giving their opinions here.

[Rich69shortfleet]

Originally Posted by ZEKE68

I read a warning somewhere that you couldn't leave the ignition on for more than a few minutes without burning up the Pertronix unit. Does anyone know this if that's right? Without the engine running that is.

With the Pertronix Ignitor I it is true you don't want to leave the ignition on for an extended period of time with the engine not running. Using the accessory position on the ignition switch isn't an issue assuming you wired it as the instructions dictate.

[Snake72]

What I plan on doing is going straight to a GM HEI with new AC Delco module with new engine harness. I didn't paint hold down tab just for the ground reason 68C10 talked about. Points maintenance is no problem just because I like to tinker with stuff and would give me something to do, but I'll go with the more consistent ignition and timing of electronic. Pertronix seems to be very mixed reviews, 20 years no problems vs 2 years and it left me stranded. I have young kids and it wouldn't surprise me one of them jumping in and playing with the key, burning up the pertronix. Hopefully the HEI will be reliable and I never have to touch it again.

And to clarify with Cliff, I have nothing but great things to say about him so far. Spoke in depth with me on the phone about my engine build to get the right rebuild components with my carb rebuild kit, etc. He rec'd points for all the reasons you guys have given. If they crap out, carry a spare and change it, you're good to go. For his distributor rebuild, he was going to rebush it, correct weights and springs and set up advance for my particular engine, etc. Even replate it if needed. $60 labor plus materials needed. Not too bad in my opinion, but I probably won't go this route.

Seems all the options have worked great for some people and not so great for others. After all, if we didn't have to fix something on our trucks, we'd get bored right???

[rsavage]

[QUOTE=Snake72;8178885]

And to clarify with Cliff, I have nothing but great things to say about him so far. Spoke in depth with me on the phone about my engine build to get the right rebuild components with my carb rebuild kit, etc. He rec'd points for all the reasons you guys have given. If they crap out, carry a spare and change it, you're good to go. For his distributor rebuild, he was going to rebush it, correct weights and springs and set up advance for my particular engine, etc. Even replate it if needed. $60 labor plus materials needed. Not too bad in my opinion, but I probably won't go this route.

+1
I'll step to the plate to support Cliff. His experience with quadrajets and years of racing and dynoing results are unparalleled. He has given a lot of his time to folks on various forms, especially the Pontiac forums. He is a great asset to the classic car/truck hobby in my opinion. I'm glad he was able to parlay his knowledge and experience into a living - that is the story of American
capitalism.

[davepl]

Pertronix all the way. My only caveat is to maybe get a II or some model without multiple spark discharge. The reason is they do not have a separate TACH wire so you just connect your tach to the coil, and it sees the multiple discharges and thinks the engine is running faster than it actually is.

If I could get a small-body GM HEI that looked stock I'd happily run that as well.

Right now I'm in a project where I'm sweating the date code on my distributor, so it's "stock all the way" on that one and I'm -still- running a Pertronix module in that date-coded distributor!