tagging and titliing antiques in your state

[joedoh]

this is long, intended to inform other kansans of the law, and to help other guys in other states interpret the laws they have.

some background, in kansas all antiques being titled on a bill of sale, all out of state vehicle registrations, al non highway titling activities, all salvage title activities, require an MVE-1 inspection, which is a VIN verification step in the title process. it is intended to stop cut-and-shut rebuilders who steal a good car and swap vins or try to "clean" a salvage title with a new vin.

the highway patrol is in charge of these inspections, and they make policy from law not the other way around. when I had my 62 it is legal to tag on a bill of sale according to the law but the POLICY of the KHP was to reject antique or otherwise titling if it had non-original components installed, in my case a modern fuel injected motor and updated frame. the inspector said it would be an assembled vehicle, with new registration that year, based on year and weight it would be hundreds of dollars more than the $18 yearly taxes of an antique. I told the inspector I would crush it first, and that the LAW for an assembled vehicle read as a combination of three or more vehicles, mine was a combination of two. he was granite, unmoved. I found a titled 65 and made my changes, dispensing with the need for inspection.

since then the legislature passed a law (last year) saying REGARDLESS OF THE age of components installed, a 35 year old or older vehicle could be sold on a bill of sale and titled as an antique. yay right? and this year they passed a law to amend the former title procedures from 1950 to 60 years old, meaning if 1949 and older, you could title on a bill of sale without MVE-1 inspection, now its 60 years old and older, so 1962 and increasing by a year every year. double yay right?


i bought a car saturday that had been sitting 32 years. the owner had done it right, applied for and received a "non highway title" so he didnt pay a yearly registration, just yearly property taxes (32 years!). they amended the value of his property so that the previously $10yr taxes were suddenly $175yr and would increase to almost $500yr in a couple years. he decided he would never get to it, sold it to me. i trailered it straight to the inspection station to get the non highway removed and pay $18yr antique reg (and insurance, but still cheaper than $175yr). the inspector told me roll it off the trailer, I said the two visible VIN were right on top of the strut tower, a riveted plate and a stamp in the body, could I leave it on the trailer? I explained the reason was to take off the non highway status, and with two flats it would be some work to get it off and back on. no dice. I removed it.

he looked at the two vins right where I said they were, which gave him a pause. he then asked me if it ran. I said its been sitting 32 years but we had poured gas down the carb and gotten some pops so it should. he handed back my paperwork and said come back when it runs. I said it doesnt NEED to run, you are performing an MVE-1 inspection to verify vin, there isnt anything in the inspection form for blinkers or tires and especially nothing about running. he said their POLICY was to allow only non highway registration and titling on non running vehicles. I told him I would load the car back up but to please find and provide to me the kansas statute that required a running car for removing non highway status. he said he would and left. I loaded the car and saw him talking with all the other inspectors, then he disappeared a while with my title and drivers licence and came back and said, my supervisor said she could approve this one for me.

I told him his POLICY was wrong, that they overstepped their lawful responsibility every time they applied a non highway title to a non running vehicle, and that his supervisor was lucky in avoiding being SUED by me for the cost of coming for inspection. he disagreed (and later i found he had checked a box saying my vin plate was illegal! so I had to go back anyway).

so my advice, read your state laws on titling, BE THE EXPERT, do not let the DMV take a leap of interpretation on a statute. most states explicitly have state supreme court rulings to the effect of "a statute must be interpreted as written", if you google that sentence with your state name you will probably find a ruling. here is my LAWFUL antique, love these things, this is my 5th but only my second roundie.

[best view]

Stories like this makes me realize how lucky I am to live in New Hampshire

[special-K]

Here in Maryland, it's easy. If you have the title signed on the back by the person named on the front of the title, you walk in with that and an insurance policy number with ins co info and you walk out with tags.

On a vehicle brought from a state that requires no title after so many years old, you bring the registration and bill of sale, along with insurance info and they will issue a Maryland title and tags, no visual inspection.

Maryland is a regulation-happy state, but fortunately pretty easy on this stuff. On any vehicle of any age that does get a safety inspection to run regular tags, the licensed inspector simply checks VIN on VIN-plate against VIN on title. If they match you are good to go. That safety inspection at time of title transfer is a one time deal. No more safety inspections as long as you own the vehicle

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by special-K

the licensed inspector simply checks VIN on VIN-plate against VIN on title.

yes, this is how our laws are written too. but the KHP notoriously oversteps their boundaries, there is a WHOLE PAMPHLET on the KHP website about inspection procedures that have no basis in reality or law.

when they changed the law regarding components, and again when they changed the law regarding the bill of sale year cutoff change, KHP was the LONE DISSENTER, citing that stolen cars would slip through! the second law was actually written to allow 1972 and older as eligible to title without inspection, they saw their revenues about to drop and came out against the law, begrudgingly accepting 1962.

[62c30]

When the inspections were done just north of downtown they were cool and I never had a problem. Never had to unload the trailer, got a on road title for a 68 chevelle with no motor or tranny or interior. Last year I called about getting my 61 inspected and was told if I trailered it it would need to back off and park under it's own power and be able to stop. I asked when they started with that and she said it has always been that way but just started enforcing it about 3 years earlier. When I moved back and need to get Kansas plates for my 16 Challenger I bought new in NC they climbed all over that car like it was stolen. Although I hate dealing with them I have friends in other states and no matter how old the car is no title you're screwed. I found a way to get an on road title for my truck, I'll send you a PM

[68bowtie]

Politicians says the government will solve all your problems. HAHAHA

[special-K]

Originally Posted by joedoh

yes, this is how our laws are written too. but the KHP notoriously oversteps their boundaries, there is a WHOLE PAMPHLET on the KHP website about inspection procedures that have no basis in reality or law.

when they changed the law regarding components, and again when they changed the law regarding the bill of sale year cutoff change, KHP was the LONE DISSENTER, citing that stolen cars would slip through! the second law was actually written to allow 1972 and older as eligible to title without inspection, they saw their revenues about to drop and came out against the law, begrudgingly accepting 1962.

Our State Troopers are not involved in that way. Inspections are done in car shops by individuals licensed to do so. The Troopers pick up the paperwork and deliver it to DMV. I'm sure glad they are not involved in any actual inspecting other than observations made of vehicles on the road, in which case they issue a repair order. You fix the violation, have an inspection station check it off, send the paperwork into DMV.

Here, title and registration are two completely separate things. The title is simple proof of ownership, has nothing to do with the right to use public roadways. A vehicle doesn't have to run or even be complete to get it titled. It is a simple matter of paperwork. Registration is where any inspecting comes in... for daily use registration only.

There are no requirements for the historic vehicle to be unmodified, altered does not matter. Yet, for some reason the state came up with another registration category, street rod. It seems to be no different that historic, but I guess it allows for more radical alterations or total creations. I believe to qualify the vehicle has to have at least 18 modifications form original

Is there some significant problem with older vehicles being stolen? I have never known of it being so common as to warrant laws written for prevention. I can see it becoming a problem NOW with the incredible values on historic age vehicles.

[Ol Blue K20]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

Politicians says the government will solve all your problems. HAHAHA

Shhhh!! They might send ya to my corner!

[72c20customcamper]

Originally Posted by 62c30

When the inspections were done just north of downtown they were cool and I never had a problem. Never had to unload the trailer, got a on road title for a 68 chevelle with no motor or tranny or interior. Last year I called about getting my 61 inspected and was told if I trailered it it would need to back off and park under it's own power and be able to stop. I asked when they started with that and she said it has always been that way but just started enforcing it about 3 years earlier. When I moved back and need to get Kansas plates for my 16 Challenger I bought new in NC they climbed all over that car like it was stolen. Although I hate dealing with them I have friends in other states and no matter how old the car is no title you're screwed. I found a way to get an on road title for my truck, I'll send you a PM

So if I sold a car to your friends that was pre 73 your state wouldn't register it as NY never has nor will issue a title for pre 73 cars or trucks. We get a transferable registration

[KW5413]

When I bought my '69 I just took my title to the local tax office and registered it as an Antique. There are some usage restrictions but.....

Anyway, no inspections required of any kind and the registration renewal is every 5 years.

[Rickysnickers]

Ok, so maybe I missed it, but with this 2nd vehicle, was a DMV clerk doing the inspection or a police officer? Also, how did this person come to the conclusion your VIN plate was illegal? I can tell you from experience, and as a former police officer, that some CA DMV clerks do not know what their Vehicle Code states. I was in uniform and actually had arguments with two of these people. Of course, I won . My point here is the same as Joe's, know your state laws as far as titling and registration goes.

[67C10Step]

Holy smokes you folks make me glad for my state when it comes to these. My truck had been off the road for 12-13 years when I purchased it, title was never transferred to the guy I bought it from because he knew he wasn't going to get it on the road, and the guy on the title was dead. I didn't know what to expect.

The title was unsigned other than the transfer by the deceased owner so the lady told me to sign the title as the new owner and give her $12.50 for title transfer. So, essentially, it was like the guy I bought it from never owned it. He never put it on his taxes since it was never registered for road use. Not sure the legalities of that in Arkansas but I am certain there is something there because they missed out on some taxes and we know there isn't a state government in existence that likes missing out on tax revenue.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

Ok, so maybe I missed it, but with this 2nd vehicle, was a DMV clerk doing the inspection or a police officer?

highway patrol "officer", in the sense of inspections only. they had cool KHP t shirts, no badges.

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

Also, how did this person come to the conclusion your VIN plate was illegal?

sheer pettiness. when I asked for the specific line of code that said a car had to run to be taken off a non highway title, he was absolutely sure it existed. after talking to his fellow officers and then his supervisor, he was informed it was POLICY, not LAW. he mis marked the form so that I would go to the DMV before his mistake was noticed, requiring a second trip with the car. instead I noticed it right there and chewed them out.


everyone should know that policy matters for things like inspection procedure (like taking the car off the trailer for the safety of the officer) but NOT for things like IF you can register a non running vehicle. you absolutely can, because there is no law that says you cant, just a policy by the KHP inspectors. so basically nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

I can tell you from experience, and as a former police officer, that some CA DMV clerks do not know what their Vehicle Code states.

this is the problem here, with a bit of looking I will find the policy manual for KHP inspectors, written by the largest walking sphincter I have ever seen in my life. it basically categorizes the VIN inspection officers as the thin blue line between peace and anarchy. in reality they know the policies but almost none of the laws.


edit: here is the before/after of the forms. he just wanted me to make a second trip. and I got my tag today so no more issues!

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by 72c20customcamper

So if I sold a car to your friends that was pre 73 your state wouldn't register it as NY never has nor will issue a title for pre 73 cars or trucks. We get a transferable registration

no, you would have a KHP inspection as an out-of-state vehicle where they verify the VIN and then use the registration to obtain a title.

Originally Posted by KW5413

When I bought my '69 I just took my title to the local tax office and registered it as an Antique. There are some usage restrictions but.....

Anyway, no inspections required of any kind and the registration renewal is every 5 years.

nor here, IF it has a title. in ks its legal to sell a 35 year old vehicle on a bill of sale if there is no current title, and if its newer than 60 years old you need a VIN inspection.

if its out of state, out of date, or out of the hedge row, you need an inspection for 1963-1987 antiques.

[Rickysnickers]

Sounds like you officer was a CSO type person. A CSO is a Community Service Officer. They are not armed and don't have police officer powers, but can do things like inspections that you just had done. All that being said, the person you were dealing with is wrong, by your account and the info you have provided. Law ALWAYS supersedes policy. I don't envy you. Best of luck

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

Sounds like you officer was a CSO type person. A CSO is a Community Service Officer. They are not armed and don't have police officer powers, but can do things like inspections that you just had done.

the guy who is responsible for all these horrible policies got in trouble for dressing as a highway patrolman. when he retired I guess things were just FLYING through the inspections, so they convinced him to come back.

its only the local inspection station too, the other counties do not have these draconian policies. and I get what the spirit of the laws for inspection are, trying to keep stolen cars or salvage fraud, but its not going to be a guy with a 32 year barn stored antique doing it, there isnt any money in it!


the guy i am talking about, once I bought some expensive billet wheels and they came with a free truck, from out of state. it was a rough little truck but had a clean title, this guy ran me through the wringer thinking it should be salvage, he called the previous insurance company to see if it had been totalled, the oklahoma dmv, THE INSURANCE COMMISSIONERS OFFICE. i could only hear one side of the conversation but he kept staring at me and saying "oh HO. REALLY? THAT DOES MAKE SENSE" like I would crack under the pressure. ridiculous.

I should run an ad asking for people to come forward if they were encouraged to have a non highway designation if it doesnt run. I bet there are hundreds.

[62c30]

Originally Posted by 72c20customcamper

So if I sold a car to your friends that was pre 73 your state wouldn't register it as NY never has nor will issue a title for pre 73 cars or trucks. We get a transferable registration

Sorry I should have been more clear. If it didn't have a title or registration or other official paperwork. In Kansas if you have a bill of sale and it hasn't been registered in more than 10 years and 35 years or older you can get a title.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

Law ALWAYS supersedes policy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

There has to be a basis for the creation of individual policy. It's called the law. Otherwise, we could institute illegal policies. Um... Duh?

[72c20customcamper]

NY may suck no actually it does but some of your motor vehicle laws or rules are arcane. I can let my registration expire and have the plates on it for years and pay no fines . All this off the road use tittles and fees are crazy to me .

Is it because they charge property tax on them ? My most expensive registration is my Dodge 3500 it's about 175 every two years its solely based on weight

[joedoh]

the more i think about this the more it burns me. i called my congressmans office today and I recommend anyone with a similar experience in sedgwick county do the same. I plan on the "andy dufresne" approach, call them once a week till i get a response, then twice a week till there is action.

if i sound fed up its because I am.

Originally Posted by special-K

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

There has to be a basis for the creation of individual policy. It's called the law. Otherwise, we could institute illegal policies. Um... Duh?

yes, this is exactly it. we have officers (even if they arent technically policemen) acting on a set of instructions that have no basis in law. if you look up the statute for kansas there is NOTHING in it about a running car for highway/non-highway determination, only the request from the owner to suspend registration and continue to pay property tax.

readers may have missed it in my original post but the property tax collector was the root of this problem, they had a hearing in court where they found against the guy with the car! they told him it was collectible and worth much more than he was assessed. this years property tax was $175 which on the scale would make the value determination over 5k, and next years assessment after losing the court case would be almost $500 which is a valuation of around 14k! by taking it off non highway, i am subject to antique property tax of $18. yearly registration is less than $50. take that!

[special-K]

I don't get paying property tax on a vehicle. I would hate to live in a state that taxed me on a possession of limited lifespan, unless I keep pouring my hard earned money and labor into it's preservation. We pay sales tax at time of titling and that is it. Vehicles are a necessity, not a luxury.

[62c30]

Originally Posted by special-K

I don't get paying property tax on a vehicle. I would hate to live in a state that taxed me on a possession of limited lifespan, unless I keep pouring my hard earned money and labor into it's preservation. We pay sales tax at time of titling and that is it. Vehicles are a necessity, not a luxury.

When I lived in north Carolina I was supposed to pay property tax on my non commercial tractor.

[joedoh]

here our auto propety tax pays for road maint, kansas is pretty big and far flung between populations, lots of paved roads here. I would bet we have as many paved miles as maryland has total miles haha

[special-K]

Yeah, I realize that, too. We are a small state with lots of roads, but we have a dense population in the Washington, DC/Baltimore/Annapolis triangle. I believe about 26% of the population works for the gov't, so better taken care of than the rest of us in the real world. I think about larger states, such as our neighbor PA, and wonder how they manage road upkeep, among other things. Our surrounding states are also commonwealths. I don't know much about the differences, but MD is not.

I know The Carolinas change property tax on vehicles. It's not that MD doesn't mind taxing all they can wherever they can. Probably the high real estate property taxes keep us from paying tax on our vehicles. Just the sales tax with so many people buying so many things pays a lot of the state's expenses. Oh, and I bet our fuel tax is much higher here. In VA where my sister lives, 100 miles away, gas is $.30 a gallon less.

I'm glad you pushed your way through this bull crap. Too many people just give up. Got to fight for your rights sometimes. We live in a wonderful country, but nothing is perfect and sometimes interpretations muddy up the waters. It's up to us to clear them up...when we can. Good for you

[Palf70Step]

Mississippi just recently changed their laws. Used to be super pain, especially because several states around us do not do titles for older stuff. I have always registered/titled mine , even parts trucks. Cost is very monimal for 25 year and older stuff. Saves lots of hassles later if I ever changed my mind. New law makes it a lot easier, just a dimple legal document to go with the bill of sale.