fedup need to vent

[pappy 2]

After 2yrs and several months of dealing with another unprofessional vender, I am not yet satisfied with an answer to my front alignment issues on 71 C-10 build. I used all front end components from 1 vendor, 2.5 in drop spindles, 2 in. drop springs, upper and lower control arms, and shock relocators. I started with the spindles, the springs and the upper control arms, and had the usual problem with the centering of front wheels in the wheel wells. So did the cross arm mod. on OEM lower control arm, (as seen on this form) and that solved that problem. However had sever negative camber (top of wheels tilted out)
Now bear in mind the truck at this stage was only the frame, no engine or cab fenders, no sheet metal at all. At this time was told by vender needed to LOAD front end and drive to settle everything in place, sounded reasonable. After several months engine was installed along with other other parts to make a truck. No change was happening as far as the camber situation. Spoke to vendor again, said wait until it is driven. Months go by, mount cab doors fenders and other parts to make drivable. Finally snuck around neighborhood driving truck to allow EFI to learn and to settle front end. No change to speak of. Spoke to Vendor again, now says will probably need to install their lower control arm. $500+ later no change on camber issue and now left wheel is no longer centered in wheel well. Contacted vendor again, now says have to purchase special spacers ($60+) and grind clearance on cross member and with a proper alignment everything will be good. I am not real comfortable grinding clearance on a crossmember that holds engine and front of truck together. None of this was mentioned in any instructions with the parts I had purchased from them.
If anyone that has taken the time to read my rant, had similar issues, please respond with what it was you did to rectify your problem
THANKS

[Warrens69GMC]

Hope you get it resolved.

[bigmac73]

I would quit talking with the vendor ( just a salesman ) and try to go to the source, start googling until you find the actual producer or technical department. or try to locate the best front end shop in your area and have them look at it. I am sure there is a hotrod shop or some kind of front end shop around

[Grumpy old man]

If it were me I'd repost your adventure with them in the Vendor review area and name the vendor your dealing with . It would save others from falling into the same pit and once they see their being called out over their bad customer service, They might just step up and help you get it squared away . For them to keep telling you to buy additional parts to fix the problem your having with their parts is just BS ! unless your personal friends with the vendor to them your just another customer paying them around 45% over wholesale + shipping for crappy customer service and parts that don't work together . From what your saying it's past time to get what you paid for !

[Grumpy old man]

[Jim Boy]

Grumpy.
Excellent! Where do you find this stuff. We need one every morning.

[mkmc69]

That's awesome!!

[Big Kev-O]

Originally Posted by pappy 2

However had sever negative camber (top of wheels tilted out)

Correction, when the top of the wheels are tilted out you have too much Positive Camber.

I ran into a similar issue. I purchased a set of tubular upper control arms because the descriptions a said:

"We have INCREASED both the caster and camber dimensions to allow for better alignments and high speed stability. These control arms help reduce the amount of alignment shims needed to obtain a proper alignment and reduce the risk of alignment shim fall-out."

I assumed I would need these arms to INCREASE the camber but I ended up with too much positive camber. The top of my wheels were tilted outward. Then I read the description of those spacers they recommend to correct the issue and realized the upper arms did the opposite of what I needed.

The description for the spacers said:
Most 63-87 Chevy and GMC lowered trucks require LONGER upper control arms when lowered with coil springs or you are forced to run longer upper control arm mounting studs, putting yourself at the risk of alignment shim fallout because so many shims have to be stacked to obtain a proper alignment. However, we have found that depending on where the truck was made and the condition of the frame, you actually end up having TOO MUCH POSITIVE CAMBER when running a tubular upper control arm especially if the truck is not going to be lowered. These CAMBER correction spacers replace the factory upper control arm cross shaft spacers for optimum adjustability in your front suspension.

This is when I thought WTF , I purchased the upper arms to prevent alignment issues and the damn things actually created an issue. The only time you would need to use an upper arm that is longer than factory arm is when your ride height puts you upper arm WAY above level. A mild drop using 2.5" springs and 2.5" spindles probably does not need a longer upper arm. If you were to use 4" drop springs or bags without a drop spindle you may actually need longer arms that increase positive camber.

I'm using bags & drop spindles and my wheel/tire combo won't allow me to tuck the wheels so I pulled off all of the spacers and shims and bolted the cross shaft directly against the cross member. This put my truck at 0* camber which means the thin spacers they sell would still leave me with too much positive camber. When my new wheels and tires come I will address the issue.

Moog sells on offset upper cross shaft K6184 that will decrease positive camber but it has to be used with the curved style spacer that are on the 67-68 trucks. They don't work with the conical washer spacers found on the 71/72s.

[jimijam00]

Stop the insanity. Ditch the crap parts that aren't working with each other and ditch the vendor while you are at it.

[HO455]

If you could list the part numbers of the aftermarket control arms and spindles maybe we could help more.
Here is a link to my repair thread where I talk about the alignment of my Burban's front end. You might find something useful there.
At the time I had air bags with the lower control arm caster modification and stock spindles. I have since converted to 2" drop static springs in the front.
With both set ups I was able to get good alignment specifications and minimal bump steer with the factory control arms.

The only real difference in our set ups is your use of drop spindles. Do you know if your spindles are taller than the factory spindles? Taller spindles than stock will affect your camber.

At your normal ride height is your upper ball joint lower than or higher than the upper control arm shaft?

Starts at post 261. https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...698377&page=11

My caster modifications starting on post 244. https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...698377&page=10

[firedemon]

sometimes when the uppers have been off people put them on the wrong side and have issues maybe post some pics someone might be able to tell

[SCOTI]

What manufacturers parts are you having issues with?

[Big Kev-O]

Not sure about the pappy2 but the ones I had the issue with were purchased from POL. POL is the only place I have seen that sells the "special 60$ spacers".

Their tech line has been helpful in some situations but they screwed me on the HD C-notch I purchased. Damn thing was over 3/8" off on the passenger side and their advice was to "bolt it down tight". I had it for over 6 months before I purchased it so they wouldn't accept a return. I purchased CPPs HD notch and it was a perfect fit so I know the POL notch was junk. I learned my lesson. I got the rest of my parts from PBFab & NoLimit.

[pappy 2]

First of all, thanks to all that have replied. I have checked back with vendor after receiving another E-mail this AM. I have told Mark that this weekend I will be replacing thier lower control arms with my modified factory arms to correct the caster problem, get wheels back centered in wheelwells and 115 inch wheel base. Then will rebuild and install the OEM upper arms. If this does not correct my camber issue, I will assum that the problem is the drop spindle. I have allready replace the 2 spring with factory 6 cylinder springs, that has raised front to truck 1 1/8th inc. I have contacted Bell Tech, and they have assured me using their 3 in drop spindle will not be a problem alligning the front end.

And yes my problem vendor is Performance on Line/Western Chassis.

Thanks again for everyones response.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by pappy 2

First of all, thanks to all that have replied. I have checked back with vendor after receiving another E-mail this AM. I have told Mark that this weekend I will be replacing thier lower control arms with my modified factory arms to correct the caster problem, get wheels back centered in wheelwells and 115 inch wheel base. Then will rebuild and install the OEM upper arms. If this does not correct my camber issue, I will assum that the problem is the drop spindle. I have allready replace the 2 spring with factory 6 cylinder springs, that has raised front to truck 1 1/8th inc. I have contacted Bell Tech, and they have assured me using their 3 in drop spindle will not be a problem alligning the front end.

And yes my problem vendor is Performance on Line/Western Chassis.

Thanks again for everyones response.

Drop spindles will not impact alignment (other than making the alignment targets easier to achieve).

Drop springs would require more shims to obtain the factory spec alignment. But, using updated/current alignment targets means targeting slightly Negative Camber @ aligned ride height which requires fewer shims.

Another thing..... Don't tighten any of the pivot points until full weight is on the truck/vehicle. You didn't say one way or the other but it's worth mentioning for anyone reading that might not know.

[pappy 2]

Scott,

Thanks for your reply, I had forgotten about the loading befor tightening. Do you think if, now, I was to go through and lossen everything up and set the truck back down, that may solve this issue.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by pappy 2

Scott,

Thanks for your reply, I had forgotten about the loading befor tightening. Do you think if, now, I was to go through and lossen everything up and set the truck back down, that may solve this issue.

I don't think it would 'solve' the excess Camber but I bet it will put things closer to reality.

That being said, you should not need the 'spacer' they sold you/talked you into. Stock length uppers should work w/o the need for excess shims when targeting a NEG .5 Camber.

[Grumpy old man]

[HO455]

Originally Posted by pappy 2

First of all, thanks to all that have replied. I have checked back with vendor after receiving another E-mail this AM. I have told Mark that this weekend I will be replacing thier lower control arms with my modified factory arms to correct the caster problem, get wheels back centered in wheelwells and 115 inch wheel base. Then will rebuild and install the OEM upper arms. If this does not correct my camber issue, I will assum that the problem is the drop spindle. I have allready replace the 2 spring with factory 6 cylinder springs, that has raised front to truck 1 1/8th inc. I have contacted Bell Tech, and they have assured me using their 3 in drop spindle will not be a problem alligning the front end.

And yes my problem vendor is Performance on Line/Western Chassis.

Thanks again for everyones response.

I have no idea what wheels you're using but 3" drop spindles may cause problems with the tie rod ends contacting the wheel depending on rim size or back spacing.
Good luck.

[pappy 2]

Here are some pictures Grumpy Old Man asked for. May give you some idea what I am complaining about.

[Lee H]

Picture number 1, the bracket with the hole under the tie rod adjuster, is there a similar one on the rear side?

[pappy 2]

yes, for an anti sway bar.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Lee H

Picture number 1, the bracket with the hole under the tie rod adjuster, is there a similar one on the rear side?

Is this what your referring to? The sway-bar mounting tab?

[Accelo]

I notice this post and didn't see an answer.

sometimes when the uppers have been off people put them on the wrong side and have issues maybe post some pics someone might be able to tell

Did you confirm they are not swapped? They are L and R sides to them.

A picture from directly above may answer the question?

[pappy 2]

I am not sure who at POL took the time to look at the pictures that they had requested, but,today in doing the swap on the lower and upper control arms, back to OEM, I was confussed which stock upper arm went on what side. Came in looked at some old pics taken during teardown to verify which went where. Had the POL upper arm off and got to looking and comparing right and left, I think I have the wrong arms on the wrong sides. Will swap the Right arm to Left side see if makes a differance with the camber.