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Old 09-08-2021, 03:52 AM   #1
79vette
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Metal shavings in a manual trans

I have an Advanced Adapters "ranger overdrive" in my K5. It's an aluminum case 2 speed manual transmission that mounts between the bell housing and an SM465 and operates like a stick shift version of a Gearvendors overdrive.

Anyway, it started making a howling noise on really steep inclines on my last off road trip, and when I checked the oil it was pretty low. Like 1 qt low on a 2 qt system. It was fine on the highway and never had any problems shifting, but on really steep hill climbs at full throttle it would grind/howl. Never had any problems even in extreme conditions prior to that trip

I've had it in the truck for 3 years and probably 20k miles with only one oil change, about 250 miles after installation per the manufacturer. When I changed the oil tonight there were some metal shavings, honestly more than I would expect to see from such a low mileage trans.



What do you guys think? Pull it and inspect it (also need to pull the np205 and sm465 to get to it), or just run it and see if the noise comes back?

See pics of what came out:

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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 09-08-2021, 08:04 AM   #2
AussieinNC
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

That is a lot of metal for a low mileage unit....

Looks like bearing filings, most likely from running the unit low on oil.

I would be pulling it to inspect and replace the support bearings.

Just my humble opinion.

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Old 09-08-2021, 10:04 AM   #3
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieinNC View Post
That is a lot of metal for a low mileage unit....

Looks like bearing filings, most likely from running the unit low on oil.

I would be pulling it to inspect and replace the support bearings.

Just my humble opinion.


This was my conclusion as well. I just wanted to hear it from someone else because it's going to be a huge project

I contacted the manufacturer last night for a parts diagram; hopefully it's just bearings when I get in there and there is no hard parts damage.
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 09-08-2021, 10:48 AM   #4
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

I agree with AussieinNC. When you heard the howling noise going up hill is probably when the low oil level sloshed to the back so the front bearings got dry in a hurry. That's a bummer, man
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Old 09-08-2021, 11:03 AM   #5
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Cool Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Interestingly, I checked the oil in the SM465 as well and it seems to be overfilled by about a quart (same amount the aux trans was low). The np205 transfer case had the correct oil level.

Now I'm thinking it may have a bad input shaft seal on the main trans which could be allowing the oil to migrate from one to the other... I planned to rebuild the sm465 when it was out anyway, so I'll know what's going on when I tear them both down
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
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Old 09-08-2021, 11:05 AM   #6
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

If you haven't been seeing any leaks on the ground, I bet you found the problem
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1963 C10 - Frankentruck 283, 3 speed with overdrive
Overdrive wiring here
1963-ish truck bed trailer - Half-Wit

1981 C10 - Penny 305, th350

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Old 09-08-2021, 11:15 AM   #7
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

I have a Ranger in my 68 I put in about 5 years ago. I can't keep oil in it. Every time I want to drive it I have to check the oil in it before I go. It only leaks externally when I drive it. I got a reseal kit from AA, but I have yet to pull the transmission out. Trans has to come out, then I pull the AA unit with the bell housing. Mine has always had a whining noise to it, but I've never seen metal like that. I always thought the gears would break in and get quiet. Lot of grief for spending almost 3k for the unit and install
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Old 09-08-2021, 01:46 PM   #8
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwmech View Post
I have a Ranger in my 68 I put in about 5 years ago. I can't keep oil in it. Every time I want to drive it I have to check the oil in it before I go. It only leaks externally when I drive it. I got a reseal kit from AA, but I have yet to pull the transmission out. Trans has to come out, then I pull the AA unit with the bell housing. Mine has always had a whining noise to it, but I've never seen metal like that. I always thought the gears would break in and get quiet. Lot of grief for spending almost 3k for the unit and install
I always had a bit of a whine in overdrive, which I think is due to the straight cut gears. It's dead quiet in the direct gear, at least up until this last trip when I seem to have blown it up.

I paid I think 1600 for the unit and another 700 or so for fancy driveshafts, and fabbed shifters and the rest myself. Now I get to buy bearings and seals, and maybe more parts... It sure adds up fast, but is still cheaper than a Gearvendors unit.

That said, if ever decide to pull yours and sell it let me know. I'd like to get another for my C30 crane truck, even with all the problems they can have
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 09-09-2021, 08:42 AM   #9
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

I dont know anything about these units but have a question about them. Does the output not have a seal on the OD unit itself? The main box's input seal is designed to keep fluid in not stop outside fluid from entering by lip design. A new style seal may need to be sourced if there is no aux box output seal. Another thought is does the aux output have a pocket bearing that simulates the engines pilot bearing? This area may need tightened up some if you are trying to keep fluid from migrating up the bearing retainer on the trans.
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:28 AM   #10
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

When you mate up the 465 to the rear of the OD unit you have to cut the nose of the bearing retainer off and machine it down to a certain thickness. That thickness is just enough for the factory input seal of the 465 leaving a small lip of about 50-60 thousandths. The back of the OD unit has a sealed bearing if I remember correctly (it's been awhile since I had mine apart)
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Old 09-10-2021, 06:10 PM   #11
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

It is my understanding that Advanced Adapters has dropped the Ranger Overdrive unit from its product line....

All that is available now are some gaskets and seal sets and some input bearing and drive sleeves...no gears and little hard parts...

https://www.advanceadapters.com/cate...ccessories/92/

Hopefully bearings will be available from specialty bearing suppliers...gears if damaged...no idea where these would be available...

Good luck

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Old 09-11-2021, 09:09 AM   #12
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

KW. I assume that means the input is swapped also. This would make sense since I know the unit is not that large.
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Old 09-13-2021, 10:23 AM   #13
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Input gear is not swapped, just the retainer cut down. Yup, the whole input gear of the trans pushes inside.
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Old 12-16-2021, 09:24 PM   #14
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

I finally got some time to pull the unit and look inside. There are no cracked or broken gear teeth, but some of the contact surfaces do show some strange wear patterns. See pics

What do you think? A bad bearing that's allowing the gears to move slightly, changing the contact pattern? I've never seen wear like this before personally. Usually constant-mesh gears have a shiny finish on the contact surfaces, or they are visibility broken
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 12-16-2021, 10:14 PM   #15
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

That is kind of odd. Haven't pulled mine yet to reseal it. Trying to move the various projects around so I can shove a trans jack under the truck
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Old 12-16-2021, 11:46 PM   #16
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Ok, so I tore into the SM465 and NP205 tonight. The NP205 was rebuilt by me at the same time I installed the Ranger, so it is essentially new. The SM465 has not been serviced since I owned it, and likely has many decades of use.

I've done a couple manual transmissions before, but I am far from an expert and would appreciate any advice before I dive into this. Let me know if you see anything I missed or have suggestions for how to go about this. Cost is not a concern; I will spend whatever it takes to make this truck reliable for the long term, but I just really don't want to do this job again in 2 years.

SM465 (pics attached):
I think I need a new output shaft, and I noticed that was bad when I installed back in 2018 it and didn't have time to get parts. Do you agree that the spline wear is excessive?
Its always sounded like a rock crusher taking off from idle and when not under a load, and quiets down at speed/under load. I assumed this was a bad bearing that was allowing the gears to move around when not loaded, and produce the vibration. Upon inspection, there are a large amount of bearing filings and what appears to be a small broken piece of casting inside the case. I'll have to locate where the casting piece is from once I do a teardown, but it looks like the back of one of the bolt bosses for a PTO cover.
The gears look good (maybe a bit of wear on reverse, but that seems typical), and no visible problems with the large parts. I think a simple kit with bearings/syncros/seals, and an output shaft, will get this transmission running right again. Any input on this?

Video of gears. I don't see anything wrong:
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__________________
1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 12-16-2021, 11:52 PM   #17
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

NP205:
This was recently rebuilt, and I changed the oil once after about 300-400 miles and then again after ~10k due to a deep water crossing. There are a small amount of metal filings stuck to the magnet; should i be concerned about this or does it look like the result of new bearings breaking in?
Again, everything spins smoothly and I dont see any broken hard parts. I think the input shaft on this unit looks fine, and I think the coupler also looks fine. Am I missing something?

Play between coupler and shaft. NP205 side first, SM465 side second.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8z5mBb4s6U4VQbEC6

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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 12-17-2021, 12:02 AM   #18
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

The motivation for tearing this all apart was a loud howling coming from the Ranger box as described in the first post when under heavy load and/or climbing hills. The drivetrain would also randomly bang.jerk violently (like the transfer case shifter would be torn out of your hand if you were holding it). The banging sounded like a large metal piece being ingested by one of the gears and then spat out, but I dont see any chipping or damage on any of the gears. At this point, I think I should do bearings/syncros/seals in the SM465 and in the Ranger and put everything back together hoping for the best. The NP205 looks fine and was recently rebuilt, so unless anyone thinks that amount of metal is unreasonable I am planning to leave it alone. I might replace the pilot bushing in the flywheel while I am at it.

However, I don't see anything that would have caused the banging/shaking. I will pull the axle covers as soon as it stops raining and look for broken parts in there, but I will be really surprised. I would think a broken ring or pinion gear would be obvious at any speed/load, and I don't know where else broken diff parts would come from...
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 12-17-2021, 09:54 AM   #19
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

On the 465 grab the gears and try to forcibly twist them back and forth. There is a sintered metal bushing between the shaft and gear itself. The bushing can wear and cause the gear to move around. Honestly this is the only wear I have seen on a 465 other than worn synchro dogs. As for the tail and the adapter. I have ran worse with no ill effect. After 40+ years a little wear is to be expected. Lastly the 465s are loud and make all kinds of racket, especially in the lower gears. These are my opinions and others may disagree
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Old 12-17-2021, 01:26 PM   #20
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

I called Anaheim Gear this morning about SM465 parts, and they are asking $450 for bearings, seals, synchros, and the press on bushings for the main shaft. That's about double what I have seen at other vendors.

I've been satisfied with Anaheim Gear in the past, but that seems like a pretty steep price to me for what you get. Do you think $450 is justified vs just buying a kit from these guys? At the point the trans is apart it's worth replacing the wear parts, but I don't want to just waste money for no reason...

https://transpartswarehouse.com/bk12...1967-1987.html
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 12-17-2021, 01:56 PM   #21
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

450 sounds a bit too high, but I haven't priced this stuff recently with the 'world crisis'. Ask them about the counter shaft spacer between 3rd and 4th. You will remove the outer snap ring, press off the largest gear and remove 2 snap rings, then install the spacer and put the gear back on with the outer ring. I see that mod hasn't been done by your second pic. Also see if they have the spring and detent kit for the top cover. If an output shaft is available I would replace it. The sleeve looks ok. Also see if Anaheim has the socket to remove the nut.
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Old 12-17-2021, 02:11 PM   #22
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwmech View Post
450 sounds a bit too high, but I haven't priced this stuff recently with the 'world crisis'. Ask them about the counter shaft spacer between 3rd and 4th. You will remove the outer snap ring, press off the largest gear and remove 2 snap rings, then install the spacer and put the gear back on with the outer ring. I see that mod hasn't been done by your second pic. Also see if they have the spring and detent kit for the top cover. If an output shaft is available I would replace it. The sleeve looks ok. Also see if Anaheim has the socket to remove the nut.
Output shaft is available. $120 new, and I'm planning to do that.

Is this the spacer you mean? If so I am planning to do that also.
https://transpartswarehouse.com/wt30...ft-spacer.html

I think I am probably going to go with the Transparts Warehouse kit. $500 gets me everything from Anaheim, plus the new coupler, both shift forks, and springs/detents for the top cover. Or I could be out the door for $325 without those extras.
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 01-03-2022, 02:23 AM   #23
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

I was traveling for the holidays, but I finally got the transmission put back together. Unfortunately, I don't remember how much play the synchros had before I tore it apart. Does this look like a normal amount of movement, and is this the correct sound it should make? I don't remember that rattle, but if the synchros are that loose it must just be that way.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cPJHf5pYxaJL2JGN7

Also, the exploded diagram for the needle roller bearings (10) in the input shaft is confusing. It shows them behind the snap ring (9), but I don't understand how it's possible to install them there. See attached images, do I have this put together correctly with the bearings in front of the snap ring? What is the purpose of the snap ring, since it doesn't come close to touching the bearings?
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread
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Old 01-03-2022, 09:04 AM   #24
AussieinNC
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Looking at the image, it looks like item 9 is one snap ring inside the input shaft, then the roller bearings then another snap ring (item 13) after the roller bearings.

Item 9 could also be a spacer ring, do you have an item number description key on that image?

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Old 01-03-2022, 01:56 PM   #25
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Re: Metal shavings in a manual trans

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieinNC View Post
Looking at the image, it looks like item 9 is one snap ring inside the input shaft, then the roller bearings then another snap ring (item 13) after the roller bearings.

Item 9 could also be a spacer ring, do you have an item number description key on that image?

Descriptions and diagram are here. I think 13 is a snap ring on the mainshaft that retains the pressed on hub. There is definitely a snap ring in that location on the mainshaft, and I don't see anything else in the diagram that could be there.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/...ts/sm465-parts
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1988 "Crane Truck" C30 - 350, SM465, with a 15' knuckle crane - thread
1986 M1009 - 6.2 Diesel, SM465, 2 speed aux trans, NP205 - thread
1979 Corvette - 350 T5
1977 Jimmy - 350, TH400, NP203
1982 Blazer - 350, 700R4, NP208 - Totalled, now a parts truck
Scratch built 16' flatbed trailer - thread

Last edited by 79vette; 01-03-2022 at 02:03 PM.
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