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Old 12-08-2021, 08:57 PM   #1
Scott2
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LS Long Tube Headers?

I'm looking for headers for the 6.0 LS (LQ4) in my '51. It does have a TCI chassis but headers that fit the stock chassis should work. Anyone found long tubes that fit?
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Old 12-09-2021, 05:37 PM   #2
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

I talked with TCI and they said the only headers they know of are Ultimate Headers which are pretty pricey and really just shorties anyway. They suggested I build a set on the truck so they'll fit. I did look up one of those header modeling kits (https://www.trick-tools.com/Icengine...ling-Set-10448) but they're >$800 which is a lot with only a single set of headers in the que.


Anyone have long tube headers on an LS in a '47-'54? or maybe a used 1-7/8" header modeling kit?
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Old 12-10-2021, 01:40 AM   #3
Dan in Pasadena
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

I have a mildy cammed LQ4 & 4l85e in my ‘55.2 using stock Z06 exhaust manifolds which flow well up to 500hp. No need for headers - unless you just want them so you can say you’ve got headers!

PS: I still plan to remove them, do some minor clean up and have them ceramic coated.
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Old 12-10-2021, 03:04 PM   #4
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

I've used the approach with Corvette exhaust that Dan suggests - it worked well. The thing with the Corvette exhaust is that they are double-walled stainless (for noise reduction, I assume) and it is a little tricky getting the downpipe grafted onto them, but can be done.

Pacesetter headers was in AZ and they let me try a bunch of different long tube headers on my '49 GMC - Camaro, GTO. truck - but I couldn't find anything that cleared the frame rail, didn't interfere with the stock brake pedal and I could snake the steering linkage around.

So I fabricated headers using the 'header legos' from ICE. I bought a 1.75" kit for about $400 from them and sold it on ebay for $300 after I finished the headers. You don't really need to model both sides and you'll find you model just a couple tubes at a time.

Here's a picture of the headers being fabricated on the bench - I used stainless mandrel bends/flanges- they are not equal volume by any stretch - maybe within about 20%


Here's a trial fit of the tacked headers on the truck - the open space in the middle with the tube sticking up is where the steering shaft passes through them. I built the headers on the chassis, and I found that when I went to fit the inner fender wells I had to put some relief pocket in them to clear the headers, but the headers will come in and out of the truck with the body on.


Here's the header installed on the truck form underneath-


I tacked all the primary tubes with a TIG and took them to a shop to have them welded, then took the flanges and collectors, but them on the engine, tacked them in then returned them to the weldor to finish. Cost me about $250 to have them welded up professionally

I'd guess I have over 200 hours in them and about $800 in materials/coating plus the cost of the pro weldor

If you think you'd like to try making some, LMK and I'll write up my tips and tricks I learned.
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Old 12-10-2021, 03:52 PM   #5
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Here's a pic of the stock factory Corvette exhaust Dan in Pasadena modified for his build. I believe the come on the C5 Vette. IIRC the double wall goes all the way down to the dump flange



They normally have an EGR? port on them and I just made an aluminum cover when I used them, but I suppose you could spend some time grinding the tube off and filling and smoothing the manifold.
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:14 PM   #6
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan in Pasadena View Post
I have a mildy cammed LQ4 & 4l85e in my ‘55.2 using stock Z06 exhaust manifolds which flow well up to 500hp. No need for headers - unless you just want them so you can say you’ve got headers!

PS: I still plan to remove them, do some minor clean up and have them ceramic coated.
I’m not sure I’m following the logic? Certainly not limiting HP up to some level with stock manifolds is a good thing, but if my goal is to build/add HP and leverage as much power as I can from all my engine mods then why would I not take advantage of headers?

Headers all by themselves will almost always add horsepower over stock manifolds. I can also realize more power out of my cam and head work by using them. The result of a coordinated cam, ported heads and LT headers should give me more horsepower overall so how this get twisted into some kind of vanity BS?
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Old 12-11-2021, 01:39 AM   #7
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by e015475 View Post
I've used the approach with Corvette exhaust that Dan suggests - it worked well. The thing with the Corvette exhaust is that they are double-walled stainless (for noise reduction, I assume) and it is a little tricky getting the downpipe grafted onto them, but can be done.

Pacesetter headers was in AZ and they let me try a bunch of different long tube headers on my '49 GMC - Camaro, GTO. truck - but I couldn't find anything that cleared the frame rail, didn't interfere with the stock brake pedal and I could snake the steering linkage around.

So I fabricated headers using the 'header legos' from ICE. I bought a 1.75" kit for about $400 from them and sold it on ebay for $300 after I finished the headers. You don't really need to model both sides and you'll find you model just a couple tubes at a time.

Here's a picture of the headers being fabricated on the bench - I used stainless mandrel bends/flanges- they are not equal volume by any stretch - maybe within about 20%


Here's a trial fit of the tacked headers on the truck - the open space in the middle with the tube sticking up is where the steering shaft passes through them. I built the headers on the chassis, and I found that when I went to fit the inner fender wells I had to put some relief pocket in them to clear the headers, but the headers will come in and out of the truck with the body on.


Here's the header installed on the truck form underneath-


I tacked all the primary tubes with a TIG and took them to a shop to have them welded, then took the flanges and collectors, but them on the engine, tacked them in then returned them to the weldor to finish. Cost me about $250 to have them welded up professionally

I'd guess I have over 200 hours in them and about $800 in materials/coating plus the cost of the pro weldor

If you think you'd like to try making some, LMK and I'll write up my tips and tricks I learned.
Great work - they look really good! I’m not REAL interested in building a set, just considering the options and I don’t have much free time right now. Thanks for the info and pics!
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Old 12-11-2021, 09:59 AM   #8
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

I've built maybe 6 or 7 sets of headers for projects over the years. It seems like when you hit that phase of a project and you have-to/want-to fab them, it is a major time-suck and your project drags for a while.

Rob McCabe had a custom header shop in Phoenix and I stopped and visited him for one of my projects a long time ago. I couldn't afford his headers but he took a half hour and showed me some of his techniques and encouraged me to try it myself. Nice guy. He has a shop in Chino Valley which is near Prescott AZ.

http://www.mccaberacing.com/

If time is at a premium and you have to have long tubes, he might be a solution.
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Old 12-12-2021, 06:16 PM   #9
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Not trying to talk you into, or out of it..the engine in my C30 is a stock LQ9 6.0..
I put a set of long tubes on it..
0 hp gain on the dyno...I was expecting 15-20 hp at least..
Just alotta trouble and expense for no gain....
When/if I ever get around to building my AD, the LS3 that's sitting in my shop will probably keep the manifolds on it..it makes 455hp with them on it...but I actually bought a set of headers for it for a 13 Camaro that I was gonna try to make work ..but I used those on the IH..still had to modify them to work on it , even with the really wide frame rails it has
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Old 12-13-2021, 12:53 PM   #10
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

some time ago there was a discussion about this and i bought a set of Speed Engineering long tube swap headers #25-1026. they are 304ss headers for putting a LS motor in a C-10 truck. they fit in my 55 chevy frame perfectly. clear the starter and oil filter (both removable without aggravation). and they are about $400 for the pair.
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Old 12-15-2021, 10:04 PM   #11
Dan in Pasadena
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott2 View Post
I’m not sure I’m following the logic? Certainly not limiting HP up to some level with stock manifolds is a good thing, but if my goal is to build/add HP and leverage as much power as I can from all my engine mods then why would I not take advantage of headers?

Headers all by themselves will almost always add horsepower over stock manifolds. I can also realize more power out of my cam and head work by using them. The result of a coordinated cam, ported heads and LT headers should give me more horsepower overall so how this get twisted into some kind of vanity BS?
I was NOT trying to "...leverage as much power as I can" out of my engine beyond what the mild cam, better valve springs and Zo6 manifolds would give me. I simply have no need or desire for more. The truck has WAAY more power than I will ever need.

The "...some kind of vanity BS" would have been if I had opted for headers with my goals in mind.
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Old 12-15-2021, 10:46 PM   #12
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhotrod View Post
some time ago there was a discussion about this and i bought a set of Speed Engineering long tube swap headers #25-1026. they are 304ss headers for putting a LS motor in a C-10 truck. they fit in my 55 chevy frame perfectly. clear the starter and oil filter (both removable without aggravation). and they are about $400 for the pair.
These look interesting! However, I did have a few more discussions with TCI and others and realized that one of the clearance issues is that the TCI chassis has a crossmember that has braces going forward and they're about an inch thick. Most headers apparently run at or just below the bottom of the frame rails and you have to do some significant contortions to get the exhaust back up to clear the crossmember. The result is that most headers that might fit ok on the stock chassis don't fit the TCI chassis.

I have found two headers that TCI says they have had success with - one is the Ultimate headers I mentioned before @ ~$1500/set and the other is a customized version of Doug's tri-y's that are built for sold by the Apicella truck guys who use TCI chassis. Thos are about $900.
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Old 12-15-2021, 11:57 PM   #13
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

OK - I thought this was a pretty simple request so I left a lot out of the story. Let me do a restart!

First - I live south of Denver in the Colorado foothills at 6627' so I fight serious hp loss due to the altitude. At 425 hp I lose ~85 hp, and at 500 I'm losing 100 hp. So I can do all the mods that you guys are doing and loving and I don't have anywhere near the same results.

I had my heads ported, larger valves installed, and milled them a bit for compression - maybe not needed as much down in the lowlands but highly recommended by my high country tuner to allow me to move more of this thin air. He also recommends I run long tubes to keep that additional air moving through.

I had the truck tuned on the dyno recently with the 6.0, hooker cast headers, BTR Stage 3 cam and the head work. It came in at a corrected 328hp at the wheels. That means take 20% off for altitude to uncorrect it and it drops to 262 hp to the wheels. With my 4L80e and 9” rear my tuner says I lose ~23 from motor hp to the wheels so taking that into account I’m back up to ~325hp at the motor.

According to BTR a stock 5.3 with long tube headers and the same cam should yield about 410hp. Take away my altitude hit and it’s about right. See their dyno chart. If you compare our dyno charts I am also dying off above 4500 RPM.

PS – one more piece of interesting info is this Richard Holdener test video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HL_VSFDEVg&t=20s on a 6.0 with a BTR Stage 3 truck cam (same motor/same cam as I have) with stock manifolds vs long tube headers. The results showed a big, fat pop in power lower in the RPM range. Holdener attributes it to the scavenging effect of the headers.

All of that means I am down on power and I am looking for ways to get a little more. Since the tuner, the dyno operator, Holdener and BTR all recommend headers I’m looking at them. However, I’m definitely open to ideas – how do I put some more power in this turd w/o breaking the bank?
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Old 12-16-2021, 12:15 AM   #14
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Here’s the dyno run: https://youtu.be/kMJo5AoOTB8
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Old 12-16-2021, 02:11 AM   #15
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

That's interesting that your 6.0 with all those mods only turned 328...
Mine stock did 344hp and 399tq...I know I'm way lower in elevation than you, but I wouldnt have thought it would be that much of a dropoff..
But it was practically the same with manis as it was with headers on mine
But I will say..I drove mine over the vail pass a couple months ago..pulling a empty trailer, there were places i could barely maintain 55...
coming back loaded...well we dont want to talk about that..haha
I know hp mods work better with headers ...sounds like it's time to bust out the checkbook..
I'd be real curious to know your results with only a swap to headers..
Your LQ4 should have had about 322hp bone stock
My LQ9 had 344 bone stock..so you'll notice I gained nothing with the headers
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Old 12-22-2021, 12:20 AM   #16
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Having driven the same LS truck at sea level in CA and at the track in Denver, the elevation KILLS power. Also, almost anything past a stock cam needs to breath. I’m not surprised at all by the power your making. Header will really help with your cam setup. I also second the speed engineering headers someone else posted about. Go on there site and search through the selections. You might be able to find ones that fit. The 2nd gen CTS-Vs sweep back a good amount.
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Old 12-27-2021, 12:19 PM   #17
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

not the cheapest idea ... but will over-come the altitude!

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Old 06-04-2022, 01:43 PM   #18
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

It's been awhile but I have made progress. After talking with my tuner and BTC cams a lot I made the following changes:

First - I bought a set of Doug Thorley tri-y headers through Apicella designs. They have DT make a slightly custom set to specifically fit the TCI chassis and tuck the headers up into the chassis. They fit great.

Second - I have a dual 2-1/2" exhaust, no X or H pipe (no room with it lowered), and some generic quiet turbo mufflers. I swapped the mufflers for a set of Flowmaster 40's.

The seat of the pants result was significant! It felt like a nice power boost and of course, was louder. No dyno run at this point.

Next - we pulled the heads (TSP ported 317's with larger valves) and milled them .0035 for better compression. This was in addition to a .0005 cleanup mill from when they were initially ported.

Finally, I swapped to a slightly smaller cam. Had the BTR Stage 3 truck cam, swapped to the BTR Truck Norris cam. These typically add a little in the lower range, roughen up the idle, and do nothing for top end power.

Then we ran in on the dyno again. You can see the before and after runs below. The result - HP increased by 22 to ~348, and torque popped up ~40 lb ft, which would equate to about 420HP and 450lb ft at the motor, at sea level. The increase went all thru the RPM range.

Dyno run here: https://studio.youtube.com/video/czgsxexLG2A/edit

Bottomline - much more power right where I want it. Those are rear wheel numbers so engine numbers are ~20%-ish higher but then altitude sucks them back down by about the same amount.

I believe the headers helped, and the cam and compression helped some too. Which one by how much - I don't know but I'll guess ~50% headers, 30% compression and ~20% cam, give or take who knows how much. I can say it's a blast to drive and the exhaust noise and idle are rough, loud and rowdy and I love it!
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Old 06-04-2022, 03:08 PM   #19
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Re: LS Long Tube Headers?

Thats great Scott.!!
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