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Old 11-08-2009, 10:57 PM   #1
Hart_Rod
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Need some engine advice and suggestions...

I finally got my chassis and suspension squared away, now I need some suggestions/advice from all you motor gurus, . I'm trying to get my truck as streetable as possible (I drive it to work several times a week, ), yet still be very "salty" at the strip.

Here's a link to the chassis/interior updates:

http://www.67-72chevytrucks.com/vboa...d.php?t=358692

First, let me say that I didn't build the motor or transmission. Here's a list of what I have done myself or have been able to determine that had been done by the previous owner. The motor was built by T&L Engine Development out of North Carolina (http://www.tandlengines.com/) and appears to be very well built. I have a lot of paperwork so I'll answer any questions the best I can. What I'm looking for are suggestions or recommendations about what has already been done or what should be done in the future to make this setup as efficient as it can be. Here's a list of what I know:

Vortech V2 Supercharger (8" crank pulley)
50 mm Blow-off valve: http://www.vsracing.net/catalog/prod...43aaf05a7d8c53

383 stroker motor (1 piece rear main seal)
All forged internals
9:1 Compression
Carrillo forged crank and rods - http://www.carrilloind.com/LinkClick...vg%3d&tabid=60
SRP pistons - http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/SR...0-400_inv.aspx

Dart Pro 1 Platinum 200 aluminum heads with roller rockers, chamber port volume 69, intake port volume 200, 2.02 intake, 1.6 exhaust, 3425 springs, PBM seals, CompCam pushrods in/exh 7809-16
http://www.dartheads.com/products/cy...num-heads.html

PRW Stainless steel roller tip rockers (1.5 3/8) - http://www.performanceracingwarehous...cker-arms.html
Competition cam - XR276HR-12
----Operating Range:1800-5800
----Duration Advertised:276 Intake/281 Exhaust
----Duration @ .050'':224 Intake/230 Exhaust
----Valve Lift:.503 Intake/.510 Exhaust
----Lobe Separation Angle:112

MSD 6BTM ignition box with adjustable boost retard and 6K rev limiter
MSD billit mechanical distributor (blue/silver springs 36 degrees)
8MM wires
Edelbrock Performer RPM HPC coated intake
QFT 750 Ban Blow through carb
Aeromotive boost adjusted FPR, http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/products.php?prod=20)
Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/products.php?prod=165)
10 AN lines from tank to FPR, 8AN return, 8AN carb
Custom aluminum tank with sump and return
SS headers (1 3/4" primaries) 50 Series flowmasters, 2 1/2 exhaust
Factory recommends Autolite AR3933, it seems to run better with NGK 45 spark plugs (.0045 gap, is this a good plug and is the gap good?)
180 Thermostat (to high or to low?)
PVC valve installed

Sid Neal TH350
SFI flexplate
2800 stall torque converter (to high/to low?)

31' rear tires, 4.11 Yukon gears with Eaton posi and moser axles

They dyno sheet I got shows 631.1 TQ @ 4900 rpm and 622.7 HP @ 5400 rpm. The run was only to 5500 rpm. Supposedly it's built to go to 7500 RPM.....

This is my first really high performance engine (and supercharger) and I want to make sure I don't break anything because something is incorrectly setup or something is missing. I'm open to any suggestions, recommendations, and/or changes to make this a strong running combination. Fire away at what you think is good, bad and ugly.........
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Last edited by Hart_Rod; 04-16-2011 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 12:48 AM   #2
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

I couldn't tell if you had an intercooler or not, but maybe you could look into spraying meth. I knew a guy with a whipple that would change the pulley at the track and spray the methanol to allow for the extra boost.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:28 PM   #3
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

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I couldn't tell if you had an intercooler or not, but maybe you could look into spraying meth. I knew a guy with a whipple that would change the pulley at the track and spray the methanol to allow for the extra boost.
The V2 is designed to not have an intercooler. Don't you have to have an all stainless fuel system to run methanol as well as a particular carb?

Last edited by Hart_Rod; 11-20-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:49 PM   #4
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Its a sweet ride Rob I wish I new more about that type of combo. I can't help much.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:42 PM   #5
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

If T&L built it with the forced air in mind then you dont need to do anything. I have heard nothing but good about them. If you have a question call them.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:58 PM   #6
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

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No intercooler, the S1 is designed to not have one. Don't you have to have a all stainless fuel system to run methanol as well as a particular carb?
I was meaning like the ystems that spray into the intake pipe. I've seen that they make them for diesels and turbo applications and some of the LS1 guys use the kits. I think Snow performance makes one.
http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=319
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #7
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

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If T&L built it with the forced air in mind then you dont need to do anything. I have heard nothing but good about them. If you have a question call them.
I've tried calling them but all I get is a voice mail. I'm sure the motor is put together correctly, I guess I'm wondering about some of the stuff the PO did when they put the motor in the truck like spark plugs and gaps, no bypass valve, no thermostat, no boost regulated FPR, no PCV valve, stall, fuel pump size, gears, tire size.......I guess I'm just trying to figure out if there's anything that doesn't belong with this setup or anything that can make this setup more efficient.

Last edited by Hart_Rod; 11-09-2009 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:14 PM   #8
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

any videos of it running??
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:15 PM   #9
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

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any videos of it running??
At the track or just in general?
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:25 PM   #10
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Pull the plugs and regap to recommended for forced ind. You have Dart heads so you will want to get the recommended spark plugs for those heads. You really should have a temp for the eng and a boost reg. For the Fuel pump, is it internal? look at it and pull some # if any are on it. A fast way to find out Gear ratio, but not exact, mark the drive shaft and tires (top or bottom) roll the truck fwd and count the 3 of rotations on each. This is lots easier then pulling off the cover.
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:34 AM   #11
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

I agree with the bypass valve (especially if you ever wind it to 7500rpm) and boost referencing the fuel pump. But since you have over 622hp by 5400rpm, no need to wind it that tight! As for the plugs, I'd call Vortec and Dart and see what they say about the gap. Seems like you have a stout ignition system, so I'm sure they will need to know exactly what you're running so they can recommend the right gap.

As for converter/gears, I'm guessing that 2800 stall is probably a little higher behind that 6xx ft-lb, and maybe a little over 3000-3200? For that 276 cam, that is probably about right and easier to deal with on the street than a 4000rpm stall, which would be a beast. I would leave that alone as long as you're happy with the launches. Again, with over 600ft-lbs 3.73's are fine in my opinion, since it's not a race only truck.

I know you just put pipes on that badboy (I'm subscribed to your build thread), but maybe later a 3" exhaust is in order? That's a LOT of ponies huffing out those 2.5" pipes! Then again, you may not want to deal with the extra noise? What size are your header primaries?? They should probably be in the 1.75"-1.875" range with all that muscle. what headers was it dynoed with?
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:11 AM   #12
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripdog28 View Post
Pull the plugs and regap to recommended for forced ind. You have Dart heads so you will want to get the recommended spark plugs for those heads. You really should have a temp for the eng and a boost reg. For the Fuel pump, is it internal? look at it and pull some # if any are on it. A fast way to find out Gear ratio, but not exact, mark the drive shaft and tires (top or bottom) roll the truck fwd and count the 3 of rotations on each. This is lots easier then pulling off the cover.
I've got the recommended plugs (autolite ar3933), just wondering what other people thought about them. I'm getting ready to change the FPR to a boost referenced one as soon as I figure out which one I want (I currently have a Holley Black pump). I have a 3.73 gear ratio, would a 4.11 be better with my motor and tranny combo?

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I agree with the bypass valve (especially if you ever wind it to 7500rpm) and boost referencing the fuel pump. But since you have over 622hp by 5400rpm, no need to wind it that tight! As for the plugs, I'd call Vortec and Dart and see what they say about the gap. Seems like you have a stout ignition system, so I'm sure they will need to know exactly what you're running so they can recommend the right gap.

As for converter/gears, I'm guessing that 2800 stall is probably a little higher behind that 6xx ft-lb, and maybe a little over 3000-3200? For that 276 cam, that is probably about right and easier to deal with on the street than a 4000rpm stall, which would be a beast. I would leave that alone as long as you're happy with the launches. Again, with over 600ft-lbs 3.73's are fine in my opinion, since it's not a race only truck.

I know you just put pipes on that badboy (I'm subscribed to your build thread), but maybe later a 3" exhaust is in order? That's a LOT of ponies huffing out those 2.5" pipes! Then again, you may not want to deal with the extra noise? What size are your header primaries?? They should probably be in the 1.75"-1.875" range with all that muscle. what headers was it dynoed with?
I'm going to add the bypass valve as soon as I figure out which one to get. I have a MSD BTM that has a 6K rev limiter in it, so I won't be reving it that high. I'm pretty sure I have 1.75" primaries and I'm going to add some electric cutouts soon so I'll have the best of both worlds, .

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Old 11-18-2009, 12:18 AM   #13
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Quote:
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At the track or just in general?
either
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:43 AM   #14
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

In regards to the fuel pump, I dont think you need a boost referenced fuel pump or regulator for that particular setup. Seems like I remember reading that somewhere, due to the fact that the whole carb is enclosed and under the same pressure(boost), so the fuel pump doesnt have to overcome the extra pressure differential. Setups with the blow-thru "hat" do need to be boost referenced.But DO NOT take my word for it. Call Vortech to verify. Just something to check out before you possibly waste and money. Hope this helps and im not way off base here.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:45 AM   #15
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Sweet truck BTW!!! What size tires you got on the back?
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:03 AM   #16
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

You don't need a PCV since this is a supercharger. You may need a vacuum system to keep pressure down in your crank case. Otherwise you could experience blow-by.

BOV, as stated in the FAQ section of the vortec website.
"When should a standard air bypass valve be used?

A standard air bypass valve should be used on all supercharged applications where the supercharger is making more than 6PSIG. The advantages of using an air bypass valve includes eliminating compressor surge (the noise heard during deceleration) for quieter supercharger operation, and reduced heat soak in the discharge tube and the supercharger."

I would either move the air filter or block the header heat and run an air duct to it. Hot air isn't good for a SC setup, it only gets hotter.

I see the fan mounted in front of you radiator. Is that a pusher or puller fan?

Fuel Pump, as stated from the vortech website: "On early engines, a high-performance, boost referenced mechanical fuel pump will provide the necessary fuel in most applications. Late model motors may require an electrical fuel pump and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator providing 6 lbs. of pressure." Again contact vortec.

As far as gearing what is your tire size? I would run it first and see what rpm you are turning through the traps. That will tell you if you need a different gear.

Don't just go adding things just because others have it. Check with the manufacture first, not that they always know best, but it's a good place to start. I don't want to discourage you or others from asking questions, but take a few minutes and do some research before asking questions when the answers are already available. The forums are great for information, but sometimes you may get the wrong information from someone that doesn't know what they are talking about and you could end up with something broken as a result of someone’s bad advice.

The truck and the combo look awesome. I am sure you will enjoy it for a little while, at least until that guy on your shoulder tells you to throw on the smaller pulley. Good Luck
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:45 AM   #17
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Quote:
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either
Working on it, .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProStreet71 View Post
In regards to the fuel pump, I dont think you need a boost referenced fuel pump or regulator for that particular setup. Seems like I remember reading that somewhere, due to the fact that the whole carb is enclosed and under the same pressure(boost), so the fuel pump doesnt have to overcome the extra pressure differential. Setups with the blow-thru "hat" do need to be boost referenced.But DO NOT take my word for it. Call Vortech to verify. Just something to check out before you possibly waste and money. Hope this helps and im not way off base here.
I haven't read that about the fuel pump. It was my understanding that by having a boost adjusted fuel pump, it would allow more fuel under boost conditions. Once again, I'm new to the S/C stuff so I'm not sure. I've spent over 5 hours on the line with several of the Vortech "tech" guys, they have been unable to give me an clear information about even the simplest questions..... I'm not changing or buying anything until I have some solid answers. I've been looking for some local guys to help with this, but nothing so far....

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Sweet truck BTW!!! What size tires you got on the back?
29 x 15.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild83C10 View Post
You don't need a PCV since this is a supercharger. You may need a vacuum system to keep pressure down in your crank case. Otherwise you could experience blow-by.

I am getting some bly-by that's why I was wondering about this. How do you accomplish vaccuum without corresponding boost? Use the headers?

BOV, as stated in the FAQ section of the vortec website.
"When should a standard air bypass valve be used?

A standard air bypass valve should be used on all supercharged applications where the supercharger is making more than 6PSIG. The advantages of using an air bypass valve includes eliminating compressor surge (the noise heard during deceleration) for quieter supercharger operation, and reduced heat soak in the discharge tube and the supercharger."

I'm pretty sure I should have the BOH, you think VORTECH would have included it with the kit if it was a necessity, :/.

I would either move the air filter or block the header heat and run an air duct to it. Hot air isn't good for a SC setup, it only gets hotter.

Are you suggesting something like a cold air box or route it to the front of the grill?

I see the fan mounted in front of you radiator. Is that a pusher or puller fan?

The fan is a pusher. I'll probably redo it and put it behind the radiator in a puller configuration. I haven't had any heat issues, on the contrary, I just figured out that they PO did not have a thermostat in it. I just added a 180 and it seems to have smooth some things out.

Fuel Pump, as stated from the vortech website: "On early engines, a high-performance, boost referenced mechanical fuel pump will provide the necessary fuel in most applications. Late model motors may require an electrical fuel pump and a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator providing 6 lbs. of pressure." Again contact vortec.

Again, I've searched their website spent countless hours on the phone with them, but all they seem to know is Mustangs....

As far as gearing what is your tire size? I would run it first and see what rpm you are turning through the traps. That will tell you if you need a different gear.

I'm running 29" tires (all add that to the info above). I've never raced before, so I'm trying to figure out some stuff before I go out there. I would rather learn here than the hard way, if I can .

Don't just go adding things just because others have it. Check with the manufacture first, not that they always know best, but it's a good place to start. I don't want to discourage you or others from asking questions, but take a few minutes and do some research before asking questions when the answers are already available. The forums are great for information, but sometimes you may get the wrong information from someone that doesn't know what they are talking about and you could end up with something broken as a result of someone’s bad advice.

I'm not buying anything until I feel like I have some solid information to base my purchases on. I realize any information gathered here or anywhere else is "buyer or listener beware". I did start with the manufactures websites and tech lines, but geesh, some of those guys are getting as bad as the AZ counter guys, all they know is what the computer tells them and it seems like the have no real life experience with the stuff they are selling. For instance, the tech info on the Dart heads tells you what plug to use, but not what gap. Now I realize every engine is different and you will need to play with this, but shouldn't it have a recommended starting point? I though fuel injection (I've done many of these setups) was somewhat complicated until I started messing with the supercharger stuff. I guess it would have helped if I would have been the one that put everything together, instead of trying to figure out why the PO did what he did.

The truck and the combo look awesome. I am sure you will enjoy it for a little while, at least until that guy on your shoulder tells you to throw on the smaller pulley. Good Luck
Thanks. I have really enjoyed learning something new and updating things that I have. My biggest fear is tearing it up over something stupid, like not having $200 part that the setup is supposed to have. When you say smaller pulley, I assume you're talking about the one on the S/C. The rear tires can't handle the power that it already makes, .

Last edited by Hart_Rod; 11-18-2009 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:37 PM   #18
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Rob,

You will need a boost referenced pump. You need to have fuel pressure rise [from your base fp setting] 1 lb for each lb of boost.

The box and a carb hat function the same way. They both pressurize the carb. The hat also pressurized the bowls through the vent tubes. The box just makes fuel leakage from the throttle shafts a non-issue.


I do not believe that the black pump is capable of supplying enough fuel. If you run, say 8 psi boost, and a 7 psi, you'll need a pump that'll give you enough fuel flow at 15 psi fuel pressure. The pump will probably go 15 psi, but it will not flow well at that pressure.

Most experts will say that a high pressure pump setup with a return style regulator is the best setup.

Nice truck, btw.

Dave
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:39 PM   #19
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

If you are getting blow bye you need a vacuum pump to pull pressure from the crank case. There are a few ways to go about this. You can spend $500+ on a belt driven vacuum pump/system or you can try an electric vacuum pump similar to what the mustang cobras run or you can see if a simple PCV system will work (closed valve cover breathers with a hose connected to a oil seperator then connect that to a port on the intake hose before the SC).

I imagine vortec should have included a BOV (blow-off-valve) but it doesn't appear they do. I would recommend a 50mm X02 BOV, they are cheap and they work. This should keep you SC happy and your carb. When the throttle blades close the SC is still spinning and building boost, but the boost has no where to go so it will try and exit from somewhere by pushing passed your throttle blades or other parts of your carb, it will also build up back pressure on the SC.

As far as a boost reference fuel pump or regulator it doesn't matter if it's a mustang or a chevy pickup. For every pound of boost you need more fuel. I would imagine you need a boost referenced pump or reg. Call vortec back and tell them you have a 351 cleveland in a 89 mustang with this SC setup and you want to know what fuel pump they recommend. Then just buy one that has similiar specs. Do you have an AFR guage? I highly recommend one.

Yes I would install some type of "cold air" setup.

If the engine runs cool and no over heating issues then I wouldn't change anything. Adding the thermostat was a good move, 180 is probably the best temp.

29" tall tire is a decent size tire and you may need 4.11, but I would drive the truck and run it at the track first before making any gear changes.
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Last edited by Wild83C10; 11-18-2009 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:43 PM   #20
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

From the Vortec site:

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=138

Read the "please note" section.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:47 PM   #21
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

You "could" run a this pump, or a similar mechanical dead-headed [non return style system]. They offer a boost reference fitting option. Imo, this would be marginal, as you would be at the edge of the pump's pressure capacity at 7 psi fp and 7 psi boost.

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...chevy1100.html

Fwiw, I would buy more pump that you need, and do a return style system. A few seconds of detonation from running lean will destroy a supercharged engine quicker than it will a mild N/A'd deal.

Dave
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'71 C-10 medium bed. Pump gas 454" +.030", stock valved 049s, dana 60 w/410s. 12.25 at 108.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:51 PM   #22
dave brode
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Here is a good site for blow-through info, both turbocharged and centrifigul super-charged.

Beware: Study and search, and study more before asking questions. I would start with the newbie forum.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php

Dave
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'71 C-10 medium bed. Pump gas 454" +.030", stock valved 049s, dana 60 w/410s. 12.25 at 108.

Last edited by dave brode; 11-18-2009 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:36 PM   #23
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave brode View Post
Rob,

You will need a boost referenced pump. You need to have fuel pressure rise [from your base fp setting] 1 lb for each lb of boost.

The box and a carb hat function the same way. They both pressurize the carb. The hat also pressurized the bowls through the vent tubes. The box just makes fuel leakage from the throttle shafts a non-issue.


I do not believe that the black pump is capable of supplying enough fuel. If you run, say 8 psi boost, and a 7 psi, you'll need a pump that'll give you enough fuel flow at 15 psi fuel pressure. The pump will probably go 15 psi, but it will not flow well at that pressure.

Most experts will say that a high pressure pump setup with a return style regulator is the best setup.

Nice truck, btw.

Dave
Thanks for the info Dave. I agree on the return style regulator. I'm looking at some aeromotive stuff right now. I'll post links for some opinions later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild83C10 View Post
If you are getting blow bye you need a vacuum pump to pull pressure from the crank case. There are a few ways to go about this. You can spend $500+ on a belt driven vacuum pump/system or you can try an electric vacuum pump similar to what the mustang cobras run or you can see if a simple PCV system will work (closed valve cover breathers with a hose connected to a oil seperator then connect that to a port on the intake hose before the SC).

I hadn't thought of that. Way to think outside the box, .

I imagine vortec should have included a BOV (blow-off-valve) but it doesn't appear they do. I would recommend a 50mm X02 BOV, they are cheap and they work. This should keep you SC happy and your carb. When the throttle blades close the SC is still spinning and building boost, but the boost has no where to go so it will try and exit from somewhere by pushing passed your throttle blades or other parts of your carb, it will also build up back pressure on the SC.

Any suggestions on where to buy one of those BOV? Summit? Jegs?

As far as a boost reference fuel pump or regulator it doesn't matter if it's a mustang or a chevy pickup. For every pound of boost you need more fuel. I would imagine you need a boost referenced pump or reg. Call vortec back and tell them you have a 351 cleveland in a 89 mustang with this SC setup and you want to know what fuel pump they recommend. Then just buy one that has similiar specs. Do you have an AFR guage? I highly recommend one.

I don't have an AFR but will look into one.

Yes I would install some type of "cold air" setup. I'll see what I can come up with.

If the engine runs cool and no over heating issues then I wouldn't change anything. Adding the thermostat was a good move, 180 is probably the best temp.

I was suprised at how much difference the 180 made. I was having a problem with my plugs fouling really quickly before I put it in.

29" tall tire is a decent size tire and you may need 4.11, but I would drive the truck and run it at the track first before making any gear changes.
That makes a lot of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave brode View Post
From the Vortec site:

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=138

Read the "please note" section.
There's a lot of stuff in there, what exactly were you referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave brode View Post
You "could" run a this pump, or a similar mechanical dead-headed [non return style system]. They offer a boost reference fitting option. Imo, this would be marginal, as you would be at the edge of the pump's pressure capacity at 7 psi fp and 7 psi boost.

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/pro...chevy1100.html

Fwiw, I would buy more pump that you need, and do a return style system. A few seconds of detonation from running lean will destroy a supercharged engine quicker than it will a mild N/A'd deal.

Dave
Thanks again Dave. Since I already have an electric pump, I will probably stay with one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave brode View Post
Here is a good site for blow-through info, both turbocharged and centrifigul super-charged.

Beware: Study and search, and study more before asking questions. I would start with the newbie forum.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php

Dave
Great Site! That's what I've been looking for, . I'm going to have a long night tonight......

Last edited by Hart_Rod; 11-18-2009 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:53 PM   #24
Wild83C10
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Aeromotive makes some good stuff.

The x02 BOV can be purchased from VSracing.net

AFR: look at the Innovate LC1 w/digital gauge or the AEM model

If you want to learn more theturboforums is a good rescource also checkout yellowbullet.com/forum
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:59 PM   #25
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Re: Need some engine advice and suggestions...

Sorry for the bad info.
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