This doesn't sound good for GM

[davischevy]

Bottom line, no matter what level you are in the pecking order, don't get comfortable with where you are and be ready to depend on yourself.

[kingsolver72]

“Wouldn’t you rather drive a Buick?”

[davischevy]

This Is not your fathers Oldsmobile.

[Coley]

"....when better cars are built, Buick will build them"

lol....not.

Coley

[MikeB]

This is NOT a case of GM screwing workers. It IS a case of them trying to stay in business. And the car business has changed. Four door sedans account for a very low percentage of sales internationally. So it's impossible to justify the investment needed to keep all of those models current.

As you'll recall, Ford announced earlier this year that the Taurus, Fusion, and other sedans will go away. Seems like their only traditional cars will be the Mustang and one or two compacts/subcompacts. Everything else will be SUVs and trucks. I saw where a market analyst said Ford's car prices were uncompetitively high due to low production volume (due to low demand). Heck, even BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Bentley(!) are making SUVs these days because they are more profitable and allow them to keep making luxury cars.

So, it's not just a GM and Ford thing. It's a worldwide trend necessary for survival. Anyone who has ever worked for even a small business understands that the quickest way to go OUT of business is by trying to sell things that buyers don't want.

[jeffahart]

Originally Posted by YBNORML

That is an incredibly shortsighted and close-minded view.

Like it or not the economies of all three countries are intricately linked.

Not really. The California economy is bigger than Canada: in 2017 California GDP was something like 2.7 Trillion and Canadian about 1.6 Trillion.

Now, Mexico is a different story. Not if, but when Mexico get's it **** together it has massive untapped potential for human and natural resources. Mexico will rise in our children's life times to be a superpower. We count on labor from Mexico and south. We get lot's of professional labor from around the world. But when labor stops coming north we will experience a decline in growth. Yes, emigration is tacked onto the birthrate for projected growth. When the Mexican economy does well, emigrants will stop coming north, emigrants south of Mexico will work in Mexico not U.S. We will decline like Europe. And the scary thing is this, Mexican emigrants identify themselves as Mexicans not American. So you have a potential for the migration to reverse in the next twenty years. Can you imagine an exodus of Mexican Americans from our country. It would devastate our economy! We are most definitely tied to Mexico, Canada, not so much. Canada is an ally, that we pay for!

And, that the American tax payer gets their pockets picked by the rest of the world is a fact. We are one of the hardest working society of people. We work more hours and take less vacations. Maybe that's why our economy is the biggest. We tend to limit our thinking to the short term two to four year blocks. But think about a twenty to fifty year picture. Nobody want's to bite the short term bullet.

Want to bet on economies and superpowers after the next thirty years.. I bet Mexico and Poland. How about China? The Chinese Government is more worried about it's own people than anything else. The hundreds of millions of downtrodden Chinese people you never hear about will soon have had it. China has propped its self up on bamboo stilts. It's own people will probably kick them out from under the government. Put your nose to the grindstone and be the best at what you do, and you will likely always have work.

GM has just crapped on the very people that bailed it out and continued to be loyal. Bad PR very bad PR!


j

[Coley]

...even as a Canadian, I would have to agree with the fact that Canada, given its smaller size and economy needs the U.S more that it needs us....simple reality.

We have a pretty small population by contrast to all the major G7/8 countries (USA, UK, Germany, etc)....35 million and that does not make us any economic powerhouse that's for sure.

I often have this conversation with other Canadians as well regarding the incredible need to increasingly invest and innovate in technology, entrepreneurialism and promote private enterprise and business....its the only way up.

The GM plant closures are simply a sign of the times for not being as competitive as you need to be.

If those were the right products at the right price...those plants would be running in full swing.

As for the unions....get over it and retrain and get back out there.
Remember nobody owes you a living...

All good
Coley

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by jeffahart

Not if, but when Mexico get's it **** together it has massive untapped potential for human and natural resources. Mexico will rise in our children's life times to be a superpower.

Now there's a leap of faith, considering Mexico is maybe one step above third world country.

[In The Ten Ring]

General Motors' quality has been on the downturn for a long time, people don't want cars anymore (they want SUV's), and subsidies and bailouts have no place in a capitalist system.

[special-K]

What does changing from sedans to SUVs have to do with moving production to China? That's where GM wants the plants operating at full swing.

[Willie Makeit]

Originally Posted by special-K

What does changing from sedans to SUVs have to do with moving production to China? That's where GM wants the plants operating at full swing.

because the Chinese are buying more GM products than the rest of the world.

just plain good business, manufacture where you sell.

[The Rocknrod]

Didn't see the article where they closed plants in Mexico. I see they are still receiving government subsidies.

[mongocanfly]

I know the company I work for has moved alot of our production to the Asian part of the world...we kept asking why and they said bottom line it's all about the taxes...when you start talking about hundreds of millions in taxes vs 0 it's not a hard decision for them...in the end it's all about the money...

[DeadheadNM]

I was also saddened to learn the New Era baseball cap company is closing its facility in NY. Only those caps for major league ball will be US made at a facility in Miami. https://buffalonews.com/2018/11/15/y...s-derby-plant/

I corresponded with New Era last week for assistance in obtaining fitted Twins and Red Sox caps that were US made. The company rep told me they are unable to fulfill my request. Mind you New Era sells caps online. It seemed to me they were merely unwilling to help: I found a fitted US made Twins cap in Minneapolis mixed in with examples that were non-US made.

[Coley]

Originally Posted by Willie Makeit

because the Chinese are buying more GM products than the rest of the world.

just plain good business, manufacture where you sell.

I have spent a fair amount of time in China in the last 1-1/2 years and that aligns with what I saw.

China's emerging middle class is seriously booming, while by contrast....the N.American (US/Canada) is in steep decline and disappearing.

Its almost reminiscent of the 50's and 60's in N.America where the middle class really started to take off...buy 2nd cars, boats, take vacations, etc...and their new middle class are very hungry for vehicles as their earnings quickly head upwards.

As a result if GM is setting up shop there....its a good business move. You go to where the market and the (future?) money is.

Coley

[MikeB]

GM has been building Buicks in China specifically for Chinese consumption for many years now. Same is true of Ford. The cars may be loosely based on U.S. versions, but are aimed specifically at the Chinese customer. No way could GM and Ford compete in China by building the cars here and exporting them. It's a situation similar to Japanese, Korean, and German vehicles built in the U.S. specifically for North American consumption.

[NorCalC20LWB]

I remember reading an interesting analysis of the American auto industry years ago regarding the challenges it faced from the rise of Japanese auto manufacturers. Detroit had a major problem due to the strong grip of the UAW union, and how to compete with the cheaper imports. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like it cost US manufacturers, say, $80/hour to produce a vehicle, and the Japanese industry was much less, like close to half as much. The answer was to cheapen the product, which produced the not so desirable low end, plastic, etc. cars to compete with Camrys, Accords, Altimas, etc. Not a good business model for future profits when the most common sedans produced would be admittedly lower quality compared to the competition.

I personally can attest to this, in 2003 when my kids were younger and we needed an SUV with a third row seat we shopped around and found the imports had a much better value. We ended up getting an Acura MDX. We really wanted to "buy American", but the quality difference had too great of a spread.

[jeffahart]

Originally Posted by Coley

I have spent a fair amount of time in China in the last 1-1/2 years and that aligns with what I saw.

China's emerging middle class is seriously booming, while by contrast....the N.American (US/Canada) is in steep decline and disappearing.

Its almost reminiscent of the 50's and 60's in N.America where the middle class really started to take off...buy 2nd cars, boats, take vacations, etc...and their new middle class are very hungry for vehicles as their earnings quickly head upwards.

As a result if GM is setting up shop there....its a good business move. You go to where the market and the (future?) money is.

Coley

China is an aging society with rapidly falling birth rates and the only emerging country with declining demographics. Like I said, the people in the rural areas are treated like crap, and they are getting sick of it. You can't move around China like we can in the U.S.. Example, I can up and move to Florida, if this were China I could not. The millions of crapped on people in the rural areas are tired of it.

Declining demographics, bad social undercurrents... appears the GM leadership is making another bad decision for the long run. But time will tell.


j

[Coley]

....Respectfully, I didn't see that at all when I was there...most recently this past August.

The country is, by all appearances...in high gear.
The uneducated older people have been working overtime to get their kids educated in order to get ahead and it appears to be working.

The economy, which is very visible in every major port is an example of their growing economy.
They are not doing a lot of things right or the way we would in N.America....but there are embracing free enterprise in a similar fashion as to what Hong Kong did 100 years ago and its paying dividends.

There is a distinct difference tho' in the class of people. Educated people in China immediately are employed and moved to the front of the line to embrace the results of their efforts.
The 'workers'...are the low wage people....with minimal chance for advancement unless they obtain education and instead they are ensuring their kids get that education.

In N.America higher education, under most circumstances....is starting to pay very few dividends, if any at all.... to the students who obtain it, despite their parents glowing intentions and promises.
A bachelors degree....certainly a B.A (Arts) is about as useful as an average high school education and no guarantee of anything but having to pay back a student loan.
This is way different than what that level brought back prior to....say the year 2000.
One term I heard/read about is that today, the average bachelors degree is the new trombone lesson.....of similar worth in terms of employment.

This is where China differs...their middle class is where the degree/education does provide success, mobility and money.

Not so much any more in N.America.....as our middle class unfortunately continues to decline.

....interesting stuff tho'.

All good
Coley

[kingsolver72]

This is not awesome news... I’ve almost saved up enough money to purchase the Chevy Volt.

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by MikeB

Now there's a leap of faith, considering Mexico is maybe one step above third world country.

So was China just a few short years ago.

[Wgesnerjr]

I get the whole economic thing. But as a consumer, I'm hurt.

2 years ago I bought a 2014 new body style Impala. I really, really like this car!. Roomy, fast, good handling, looks are good too. No matter who gets in it, they notice and complement me on it. One of my co-workers went out and bought one after riding to lunch in mine. it has been trouble free and only needed tires and a battery since I bought it. My wife and I have been so impressed with it that we decided to give it to our daughter to take to college in 2020 and buy a brand new one for us. Too bad the timing doesn't work out to buy one now.

However, I realize I am not the new normal; I still like driving a CAR. Not sure what the next move for me will be. I guess I either conform and buy a foreign car or an SUV.

[special-K]

It's the way it is, but I think it's ridiculous that the fickle minded consumer who perceives the need to now be driving a truck or SUV because everybody else is holds such power over the fate of things of such huge importance. We now have the cars available to us the fickle consumer was screaming for. Some for the motorhead, but the rest want conveniences, safety, ease of operation, longevity, lower emissions, and great fuel economy. We have all that now in cars and they aren't selling enough. They should have never phased out the station wagon. Just odd how image plays such a big part in this. My how we have become so jaded.

A friend of mine's son got himself a job with one of the counties about an hour drive away. He got himself a big new black crewcab dually K3500 Silverado Duramax. Hey, dad's still driving the black '88 Sportside he bought new. Like father like son. But after running that truck up and down the road just to work and back a while he decided to get a little new black Volt to drive to work. He was telling me it cost something stupid like $3 a week in fuel. Pretty much the money he was saving in fuel was making his second car payment. And he uses the truck on weekends on side jobs. Smart young man.

[davischevy]

We as a society are a hard lot to please.

We won't buy the products made here then blame the corporations when they are forced to react accordingly. If we want our jobs to stay here we have to buy our own products. We demand top wages and lowest prices. The two don't meet in the middle.

We are as much to blame as the corporations.

China will go the way of Japan and become "Americanized". As the standard of living goes up, competition in prices will go down. Anybody remember when everything we bought in the store was "Made in Japan". How long has it been since you saw that imprint?

[mongocanfly]

I was disappointed when I got my new Holley intake...when I flipped it over it had made in China on the bottom....I ground that off in digust.....