NV4500 swap is underway

[70custom20]

Originally Posted by MrBeast

Larry, just parused the whole thread, looks like you have a mighty fine truck coming togeather.

I did not see if you used the dodge or the GM tranny, but the dodge NV4500 had issues with the 5th gear nut backing off, and the gear failing. They would get noisy first and then going down the road 5th gear will just stop working.

From what I was told the 5th gear issue was addressed in the trannies after the '96 model year.

[DirtyLarry]

70custom20,

I don’t foresee any problem using a 10 spline 205 with an Advance Adapter NV4500 kit. Except, as you mentioned, a good deal of driveline slop is typical with 10 spline adapters. I sold my 10 spline 205 and went with a 27 spline 205 to help get more spline counts in the coupler for that reason. I would have rather had a newer round pattern 32 spline 205 with a less intrusive AA NV4500 kit but I couldn’t find a round 205. Sometimes I wish I would have just settled on a 32 spline NP241 until a 32 spline round 205 popped up especially after having to rip the 27 spline 205 out after 300 miles to replace a cog. BTW.....welcome to the best GM truck site on the internet!

GM and Dodge both had the 5th gear nut issues. The vibration of the diesels made the condition worse and being most Dodges are diesels made it appear it was more of a Dodge issue. The reality it is an issue across the board for all NV4500’s sooner or later. The NV4500 I am using is a 1998 K3500 trans from behind a 7.4L that the nut had just started to back off where the coupler between 5th gear and the actual nut was starting to spin around. That said, I don’t think the 5th gear issue was corrected in 1996. In fact, I don’t think it was ever completely resolved.

[Zoomad75]

Keep in mind also that by using the AA 27 spline kit, the nut is eliminated anyway. It's replaced with a bolt on collar installed after the last 4" (APPROX) of the tail shaft is cut off. I don't see that collar backing off at all unlike the stock nut.

[DirtyLarry]

Yeah, that is one neat thing about the 27 spline to NV4500 AA kit. The nut goes adios while the transmission tailshaft housing to tcase connection holds the entire contraption together and 5th gear in place. In time, we’ll see how good that works out in the real world

[jbclassix]

Larry, do you have the 27 spline input gear you need yet? If you are still looking for one, I have one and I'm looking for a 10 spline. (sorry, I didn't have time to read back through and see if you found one)

[jbclassix]

camper updates?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by jbclassix

camper updates?

Yeah, link here to camper thread.

[6thcav]

would i use a bell of a 90's chevy 350 for the bolt pattern on the nv4500

[Critter]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Yep, Chevrolet has only used the same bell housing pattern on their engines for the last 60 some years.

Come on Larry, you know that's not exactly correct. They overlap but they are not completely "the same"

Originally Posted by 6thcav

would i use a bell of a 90's chevy 350 for the bolt pattern on the nv4500

You would have to use a bell housing off of a 93+ nv4500 that was behind a 350 or 454 (i'm not sure about the 6.5 diesels but probably the same also). There were a lot of sm456 trannies in the 3/4 - 1 tons from 88-92 that won't bolt up to the nv4500. You might already know that, just making sure.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Critter

Come on Larry, you know that's not exactly correct. They overlap but they are not completely "the same"




You would have to use a bell housing off of a 93+ nv4500 that was behind a 350 or 454 (i'm not sure about the 6.5 diesels but probably the same also). There were a lot of sm456 trannies in the 3/4 - 1 tons from 88-92 that won't bolt up to the nv4500. You might already know that, just making sure.

Yeah, but I meant bell housing mating shape between the engine and trans. You could take the NV3500 in your picture and bolt it on to the back of a 1955 265 V8 if you wanted. Obviously, they used many different actual bellhousings over the years depending on transmissions but the engine mating shape never changed.

[Adam5432002]

TAg for use soon.

[Critter]

Your right, I was just giving you a hard time mainly. That's why I used the word "overlap". However, I have had people tell me that my bell housing pictured above IS NOT for a chevy after they see that bolt hole at the top. Guys that are just unfamiliar with the LS engines.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Critter

Your right, I was just giving you a hard time mainly. That's why I used the word "overlap". However, I have had people tell me that my bell housing pictured above IS NOT for a chevy after they see that bolt hole at the top. Guys that are just unfamiliar with the LS engines.

That is funny. Odd about that top center bolt, as that does come up as a conversation piece from time to time. Chevrolet used it on old engines back in the 50’s then stopped casting it in engines for like 40+ years until the late 90’s. Kind of like how the LS engines does not cast bolt provisions on the passenger’s side (1 o’clock position) of the LS engines. They still bolt together the same though where old engines can be mated to new transmissions or vice versa. Chevrolet has been consistent like that.

[bakerboys]

I just acquired a 1983 k10 with a 350 and a 3 speed with a.granny gear it is strong but. It keeps popping out of granny gear. I was playing with it in the yard and noticed it won't hardly go in gear or stay in gear. Let me ask you. How hard would it.be to switch to a 350 turbo or.700 r4 this.truck is for my son. So a automatic might be better for him
I hope this is not what they call hijacking your thread but. I thought.you might give me a clear answer thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by bakerboys

I just acquired a 1983 k10 with a 350 and a 3 speed with a.granny gear it is strong but. It keeps popping out of granny gear. I was playing with it in the yard and noticed it won't hardly go in gear or stay in gear. Let me ask you. How hard would it.be to switch to a 350 turbo or.700 r4 this.truck is for my son. So a automatic might be better for him
I hope this is not what they call hijacking your thread but. I thought.you might give me a clear answer thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, this is pretty much a highjack. This thread is more about swapping in a NV4500 manual trans, not a 700R4 automatic. There are lots of threads on 700R4 swaps elsewhere though. Do a quick search and you should find some helpful threads

[Mucknorris]

Awesome job! I am wanting to do this to my 71 K10. Currently running sm465, but I ran across a thread about having to have a vehicle speed sensor and was wondering if you installed something to that effect to make it run right or if you were able to run the speedo cable to the transfer case without any issues.

[Critter]

Larry, I went back and reread this and didn't see an answer to the question I'm about to ask...did you consider a ZF6 manual tranny at any time? If so, was price a deciding factor or do you simply like nv4500s that much more?

[DirtyLarry]

Muckmorris,

I am not running any kind of speed sensor. Just the stock speedo cable from the NP205 tcase to the speedo head.

Critter,

Nah, I never considered a ZF S6-650. I have one of those behind an 8.1L in my 2500HD and not real fond of it. It is one awkward shifting transmission. Have you ever driven one? The NV4500 is so much nicer shifting. Aside from that, I don’t think it would fit without a body lift or significant firewall and trans tunnel work. The ZF is HUGE but is probably a much stronger trans than a NV4500. I haven't heard of any ZF's with OD gear set issues or anything else that the NV4500 are famious for

[Critter]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Critter,

Nah, I never considered a ZF S6-650. I have one of those behind an 8.1L in my 2500HD and not real fond of it. It is one awkward shifting transmission. Have you ever driven one? The NV4500 is so much nicer shifting. Aside from that, I don’t think it would fit without a body lift or significant firewall and trans tunnel work. The ZF is HUGE but is probably a much stronger trans than a NV4500. I haven't heard of any ZF's with OD gear set issues or anything else that the NV4500 are famious for

I have driven the Ford version but never the Duramax or 8.1 Version. That's somewhat why I was asking, I know your are an 8.1 guy so I figured you were familiar with them. I'm a big fan of the NV4500 also, I'll just stick with them. The 5 trucks I've had with them so far have treated me right.

[Mucknorris]

thanks for the feedback Dirty larry

[K20chevy]

I´m running the S6 650 in my truck, a 78 K20... I think it is a great shifting tranny. Better than any other truck manual I´ve drivven before. But Larry is right, you need to pretty much cut out the whole transmision tunnel and fab a new one because this tranny is about 2 to 3" higher than the stock 4 speed...

Was it a lot of work to put it in: YES, youbet. Was it worth it? I would say so as I don´t know many 78 K20s with a 6 speed manual!

I´m happy with the swap.

And to the shift pattern: there is a reason for that. rev. and 1st are in line, so if you back up a trailer and need to go between 1st and reverse a lot you don´t have to switch the gate -> faster shifting. And mine also has a huge resistance to go into the rev./1st gate. you almost have to slam the leaver over to even get into that gate. so going into 2nd to start out is as if there was no gate to the left of it. Seems like you must have a realy early version. Mine is from an 06, so the last year they were offered.

I absolutely love mine behind the 6.2l L92.

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Muckmorris,

I am not running any kind of speed sensor. Just the stock speedo cable from the NP205 tcase to the speedo head.

Critter,

Nah, I never considered a ZF S6-650. I have one of those behind an 8.1L in my 2500HD and not real fond of it. It is one awkward shifting transmission. Have you ever driven one? The NV4500 is so much nicer shifting. Aside from that, I don’t think it would fit without a body lift or significant firewall and trans tunnel work. The ZF is HUGE but is probably a much stronger trans than a NV4500. I haven't heard of any ZF's with OD gear set issues or anything else that the NV4500 are famious for

[DirtyLarry]

Wow, a S6-650 behind a 6.2L must be like driving a race car engine backed by a dump truck transmission

Glad you like yours….you could have the ZF S6-650 in my 2001 2500HD. I hate the damn thing. Worst shifting manual trans I’ve ever owned with an even worse shift pattern. I’ve own that truck since new and 13 years later it has finally started to loosen up where it isn’t quite as notchy as it was up to this point (It just turned 59,000 miles last week) but I still hate it. The clutch pedal geometry on the GMT900 trucks is also quite funky. There is no slip to it, it works like an on/off switch where it is almost impossible to launch the truck smoothly. Between the clutch operation and the awkward shifting ZF 6 speed is why it has only racked up 59K in 13 years. I don’t like to drive it much.

I still prefer a NV4500 over the ZF any day, but there is no doubt about it the ZF is a much stronger transmission by a long shot.

[K20chevy]

Like I said before and someone else mentioned it before, my S6 650 (and his) shift really smooth, so you must have gotten a bad one. And I have to admit that my clutch linkage and all that is totally different anyways since I jused the duramax hydraulics with the OEM 78 clutch pedal with a home turned and welded mount. so my clutch pedal has about half the throw of the stock one. Takes a little to get used to, but makes for really fast shifts. And together with the 6.2 L92, it makes for a fun and fast combination. The ZF in my truck the way it is set up actually has relatively short throws for a truck tranny and also I think it shifts really nice. You really must have gotten a bad example.

I even think I have an on bord video from a stand still shifting through the gears..that shows how nice it does shift...

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Wow, a S6-650 behind a 6.2L must be like driving a race car engine backed by a dump truck transmission

Glad you like yours….you could have the ZF S6-650 in my 2001 2500HD. I hate the damn thing. Worst shifting manual trans I’ve ever owned with an even worse shift pattern. I’ve own that truck since new and 13 years later it has finally started to loosen up where it isn’t quite as notchy as it was up to this point (It just turned 59,000 miles last week) but I still hate it. The clutch pedal geometry on the GMT900 trucks is also quite funky. There is no slip to it, it works like an on/off switch where it is almost impossible to launch the truck smoothly. Between the clutch operation and the awkward shifting ZF 6 speed is why it has only racked up 59K in 13 years. I don’t like to drive it much.

I still prefer a NV4500 over the ZF any day, but there is no doubt about it the ZF is a much stronger transmission by a long shot.

[martindc1]

Larry, with that AA bellhousing, do you have the option of going with mechanical clutch linkage? What are the advantages of a hydraulic clutch anyway?

Also, I'm surprised to hear about your issues with the ZF6. My work truck is an 04 Duramax 2500 HD with a ZF6 and I love it. If I read your posts correctly, you start out in 1st? I never do, I start out in 2nd as 1st is 5.79 or so. So shifting 2-6 is just like driving a regular 5 speed. It is actually the same shift pattern as my 02 Jetta, with the exception of the Jetta missing creeper gear. I wasn't ever thrown too far off by the reverse location of the ZF6 either as I was used to reverse being to the left on my old sm420.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by martindc1

Larry, with that AA bellhousing, do you have the option of going with mechanical clutch linkage? What are the advantages of a hydraulic clutch anyway?

Also, I'm surprised to hear about your issues with the ZF6. My work truck is an 04 Duramax 2500 HD with a ZF6 and I love it. If I read your posts correctly, you start out in 1st? I never do, I start out in 2nd as 1st is 5.79 or so. So shifting 2-6 is just like driving a regular 5 speed. It is actually the same shift pattern as my 02 Jetta, with the exception of the Jetta missing creeper gear. I wasn't ever thrown too far off by the reverse location of the ZF6 either as I was used to reverse being to the left on my old sm420.

Yes, you can use a mechanical clutch with the AA bellhousing, or add the bracket for hydraulic like I did. The bell works with both. The advantage of a hydraulic clutch is that it is easier to step on and they clutch works flawlessly even when the frame is all twisted up while off-roading.

I don’t have issues with the ZF in the Silverado, I just don’t like it. The shift pattern is clumsy and awkward plus the clutch engagement isn’t as smooth as the old trucks. The clutch engagement isn’t the ZF’s fault but more of GM’s pizz poor clutch design on the GMT800 trucks. The clutch works like an on and off switch, with no smooth way to launch the ZF truck. I bought the truck brand new and it has been like this since day 1. The dealer even put a new clutch and slave while it was in warranty to no avail.

I don’t start off in granny gear either. I start off in what you are calling second. The only time I use granny gear (1st on the knob) is when towing very heavy loads or the need to go super slow. One thing I really hate about the ZF is how easy it is to stick in reverse when you are aiming for 1st (second if you go by the letters on the knob) as you roll up to a stop sign. I’ve surprised a few people taking off from a stop in reverse instead of 1st.

Between the crappy clutch engagement and the awkward shift pattern, I don't care for the ZF in the Silvy. I don't drive it much anyway. In 11 years of ownership it only has 55K miles. I prefer a NV4500 or NV5600 any day over the ZF S6-650