72,91,92,96,99 Cadillac C-10 Pickup truck

[actconstruction]

I've been looking around the web, looking for information about rear wheel drive 4.9 L swaps, and only found some general information. So, here we go, I'm about to dig in, but first... Has anybody here ever used the 4.1/4.5/4.9 Cadillac motor in a rear wheel drive application? How did you make out? Here are the issues as I see them.
1) Bellhousing configuration. Looks close but no cigar for the SBC pattern.
2) Rear mount thermostat housing. No biggie, I'll just run it remote to the front or side somewhere.
3) Intake direction is wrong, but I think a one inch spacer and rotating the whole assembly will maintain air flow. I may supercharge, making this a moot point.
4) I need to be able to operate a 4L80e transmission using inputs from the 4.9. Not sure about this part yet
5) I need to delete the Body Control Module, climate control, and passlock system.
6) Oil filter assembly on back side overhanging bellhousing. I'll just run this remote with a bit of minor custom fab work.
7) Motor mounts for RWD configuration. I'm not sure about this, since the motor's not out yet and it's hard to see them. It doesn't look good, though

I'll start posting pictures when it really gets underway. I pulled the motor, transmission, etc. from my fresh 72 LWB (eventually shortbox) C10 AirCab project. I pull the motor and transmission tomorrow from the Caddy, which by the way, only has 20k original miles. It's the same old story, old lady bought a Caddy and wasn't really able to drive. This is not a line, I know personally that this Caddy is legit. It actually produces almost 300 HP and well over 350 ft/lbs torque with an extremely low power band that runs out around 4500 RPMs with a preset shift at 4000 under light load. Maybe I'll try to find a 6L transmission to take better advantage of the low power band, and try to work out a better gear ratio for the rear axle. One thing at a time, I guess. Any experience, advice, or kind words out there?

[blackedoutharley]

Isn't that the same engine Cadillac used in the XLR?

Perhaps some parts from one of them could be adapted to your truck to ease installation.

[Pyrotechnic]

This swap doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

From Wikipedia

A larger version of the 4.5, the L26 4.9, debuted in 1991 at 4.9 L with a square 92 mm (3.6 in) bore and stroke. Despite the fact that it had similar output to Allante's 4.5 L port fuel injected V8, the 4.9 L engine represented a significant upgrade for the remainder of the Cadillac lineup. Horsepower output was up 20 hp (15 kW) from the previous 1990 4.5 L engine and torque was up by 30 lb·ft (41 N·m), to 200 hp (149 kW) and 275 lb·ft (373 N·m). Both the 4.9 and 4.5 port fuel injected engines required premium fuel due to a 9.5:1 compression ratio. The 4.9 produces its maximum horsepower at 4100 rpm.

200HP and 275TQ

I hate to break this to you, but you are going to spend a lot of money on a motor swap that doesn't perform all that well and may not be very reliable, let alone easy to get parts for.

There are a lot of other motor swap options that make a lot more sense. A 5.3L or 6.0L LS motor for example. If you gotta have Cadillac, get a 472 or 500. Any Pontiac, Olds, or Buick V8. Even a Ford 302 makes more sense!

Bottom line, sell the car intact and get what you can for it to fund a different motor swap. Don't get me wrong, I love unique and out of the box engine swaps, but they have to make sense as far as money/time/power. This one is going to expensive, time consuming, and low on power. Not trying to bash or anything, I'd just hate to see you invest a bunch of time and money into something and not be happy with the end result.

A cherry Cadillac like that could pull some decent cash. With the whole "donk" look being popular right now I'm sure there is someone who would pay you a pretty good amount for that car.

[bighaas79]

I'd have to jump on with pyro on this one I've worked on these motors before and can honestly say I don't have any overly kind words to say about them. In fact i just replaced a waterpump on one today. Have fun torqueing head bolts down on one if you ever have to replace head gaskets on it. Last one i saw that needed head work done ended up putting helicoils in all the head bolt holes because the bolts pulled all the threads out. And the guy doing the work was being very carefull during the torque sequence, because he knew it could be an issue. I think he pulled 3 out in the first torque which i think is like 17 lb/ft? There are even a couple machine shops in this area that will flat out refuse to do any work on these motors because of what a pile of garbage they are. That coupled with the points already stated earlier, i would recomend against it. There is a reason i think you don't hear of these motors being used for swaps. It is your vehicle and your project and ultimately your choice, but i agree, i think there are way better choices for swaps out there. I would totally vote for the 472-500 caddy route. these motors are friggin monsters and take very little work to pull huge power out of. And since they have the bop belhousing pattern it will be easy to find a tranny case to use.

[cableguy0]

They are extremely problematic engines. Its definately far from an ideal swap. Its a boatload of work to swap to an engine with reliability issues. I doubt you will be able to make the 4l80 work with the caddy electronics. They were never put together and never meant to be together. Having had to fix quite a few of these gems I would highly reccomend continuing your search and finding something better. An ls engine comes to mind first especially if you want fuel injection.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by cableguy0

They are extremely problematic engines. Its definately far from an ideal swap. Its a boatload of work to swap to an engine with reliability issues. I doubt you will be able to make the 4l80 work with the caddy electronics. They were never put together and never meant to be together. Having had to fix quite a few of these gems I would highly reccomend continuing your search and finding something better. An ls engine comes to mind first especially if you want fuel injection.

Okay, so it's "a boatload of work". How so?
Never "meant to be together"? HAH! I don't even know what that phrase means. And, I'm not simply after fuel injection. I'm after unique, 23 mpg, 200+HP, 300+ torque......

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by cableguy0

They are extremely problematic engines. Its definately far from an ideal swap. Its a boatload of work to swap to an engine with reliability issues. I doubt you will be able to make the 4l80 work with the caddy electronics. They were never put together and never meant to be together. Having had to fix quite a few of these gems I would highly reccomend continuing your search and finding something better. An ls engine comes to mind first especially if you want fuel injection.

They are NOT problematic engines. The 4.1's and 4.5's were. "Caddy electronics"? You do know it's just a GM built engine with 4T60e trans, right? 20k with reliability issues? I'm not worried. LS1 engine? Not quite original enough for me. Thanks for the advice, though.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by Pyrotechnic

This swap doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

From Wikipedia



200HP and 275TQ

I hate to break this to you, but you are going to spend a lot of money on a motor swap that doesn't perform all that well and may not be very reliable, let alone easy to get parts for.

There are a lot of other motor swap options that make a lot more sense. A 5.3L or 6.0L LS motor for example. If you gotta have Cadillac, get a 472 or 500. Any Pontiac, Olds, or Buick V8. Even a Ford 302 makes more sense!

Bottom line, sell the car intact and get what you can for it to fund a different motor swap. Don't get me wrong, I love unique and out of the box engine swaps, but they have to make sense as far as money/time/power. This one is going to expensive, time consuming, and low on power. Not trying to bash or anything, I'd just hate to see you invest a bunch of time and money into something and not be happy with the end result.

A cherry Cadillac like that could pull some decent cash. With the whole "donk" look being popular right now I'm sure there is someone who would pay you a pretty good amount for that car.

Thanks for the wiki, but dynos don't lie. And, no, I've tried to sell it. I wound up parting it out for more cash than I could sell it for. And, power isn't everything. Those power numbers with 23 MPG on the highway? Awesome. I'm not looking for massive power. I'm looking for a decent unique, cool, daily driver. Oh, and "sense"? 23 MPG with decent power, and I got the car for an $80.00 junkyard trans. Not sense, cents. Thanks anyway.

[cableguy0]

Im completely aware of what this engine is. Aside from not being able to physically bolt the the engine to the trans. The stock computer cant control a 4l80e.The mounts are going to turn into a fabrication nightmare. The point is its a lot of hassle for little payoff in name of being different. Theres a reason certain things become popular and others dont. Its not because people dont want to be different its because some things work well and some dont. Its your time and money have at it. Good luck.

[usmcchevy]

I can't wait to see pics of this. Sure it might be a pain and in others opinions not worth it, but if you already have the motor it will be interesting and different. So go for it!
The trans, a 4L60e will easily handle your power and torque. A 80e will just take more power to turn, doesn't have quite as low of a OD gear and it weighs more so it will hurt your economy and performance. Good luck and remember we love pics!

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

I can't wait to see pics of this. Sure it might be a pain and in others opinions not worth it, but if you already have the motor it will be interesting and different. So go for it!
The trans, a 4L60e will easily handle your power and torque. A 80e will just take more power to turn, doesn't have quite as low of a OD gear and it weighs more so it will hurt your economy and performance. Good luck and remember we love pics!

Good point. I actually have a 4L60e with extremely low miles on a rebuild. It's the 97-up style with 65 upgrades. I also have the ECM from it, and I believe I can piggyback the trans ECM to the Caddy ECM as I have done in the past. I don't think this one will be a "pain" so much as more thinking than most people want to spend their time doing. I have worked out the bellhousing issue. Okay, so I got some confimation and exact milling specifications from a guy in England where they actually use these motors for rear wheel drive English built cars with a 700R, tomato, temato. So, I guess it's not that this isn't a popular swap. It's just not a popular swap in America, and not on pickup trucks. This is not a pickup truck. It is a two door Cadillac in disguise, right down to the suspension. Or it will be, at least. I have black leather, 8 way bucket seats with center console, black leather tilt steering, CD with piggybacked cassette deck, all from 1999 Chevy's. Thank you for your encouragement, and an actual fact-based suggestion. That's what I was looking for, suggestions and advice about the build, not suggestions and advice about not doing it. LOL. I live in NC, where the weather looks pretty awful until Saturday. As soon as it clears up, I will start taking pictures.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by bighaas79

I'd have to jump on with pyro on this one I've worked on these motors before and can honestly say I don't have any overly kind words to say about them. In fact i just replaced a waterpump on one today. Have fun torqueing head bolts down on one if you ever have to replace head gaskets on it. Last one i saw that needed head work done ended up putting helicoils in all the head bolt holes because the bolts pulled all the threads out. And the guy doing the work was being very carefull during the torque sequence, because he knew it could be an issue. I think he pulled 3 out in the first torque which i think is like 17 lb/ft? There are even a couple machine shops in this area that will flat out refuse to do any work on these motors because of what a pile of garbage they are. That coupled with the points already stated earlier, i would recomend against it. There is a reason i think you don't hear of these motors being used for swaps. It is your vehicle and your project and ultimately your choice, but i agree, i think there are way better choices for swaps out there. I would totally vote for the 472-500 caddy route. these motors are friggin monsters and take very little work to pull huge power out of. And since they have the bop belhousing pattern it will be easy to find a tranny case to use.

Not to question what you're saying, but are you sure it was a 4.9L? I've seen issues like the ones you're talking about on 4.1/4.5's but it's been my experience that by the time 92 (or was it 91?) came around and the big brother, 4.9 hit the line, these issues were resolved. Yes, the water pump is a pain in a front wheel drive, but I'm not building a front wheel drive, so problem solved. As far as the machine work goes, yes some shops won't work on them, but not because they're piles of crap. It's because the lifters assembly is used to pre-stress the engine before final machining. Therefore, if it were removed, it would require extremely skillful machine work to bring the engine back to stock specs. There's my 2 cents. Oh, and as far as the HP goes, I should've been clear about my intentions with this build. I have stupid powerful stuff around here. I'm looking more for ease and comfort of driving, while maintaining a decent amount of power when I just have to hit the freeway at 80 mph and get it done quick. The bellhousing is resolved and it wasn't as bad as I feared. It's a simple inch thick aluminum adapter plate. Somebody makes one already, I'll look it up again if anybody's really interested. I'm going to just make mine though, using specs from a gentleman from England, since $250.00's a little steep for a simple bellhousing adapter plate. Thank you everybody for your suggestions and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Please, keep it coming. Pictures on Saturday.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by cableguy0

Im completely aware of what this engine is. Aside from not being able to physically bolt the the engine to the trans. The stock computer cant control a 4l80e.The mounts are going to turn into a fabrication nightmare. The point is its a lot of hassle for little payoff in name of being different. Theres a reason certain things become popular and others dont. Its not because people dont want to be different its because some things work well and some dont. Its your time and money have at it. Good luck.

I think I have the trans controller and bellhousing sorted. I pray that you're wrong about the difficulty of the motor mount issues, but I fear that you're right. Wish they had the same mount locations as the older engines with the same displacement. But, hell no, they're not even close. Very front-wheel-drivey. I also wish myself good luck. LOL. Thanks everybody. Keep it coming.

[brad_man_72]

why not make it rear engine w a transaxle? That'd be more different and a little easier.

[Clyde65]

maybe FWD? that would be very different.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by brad_man_72

why not make it rear engine w a transaxle? That'd be more different and a little easier.

I considered something like that, but it seems like maybe it wouldn't be easier. I guess I could just cut a hole in the bed and drop it in, but I think that's something that would work better in a car. Maybe. Suggestions?

EDIT:
Okay, so I spoke too soon. You got me thinking and I remembered something from way back in those fuzzy days of my early twenties. I remember a buddy of mine taking an ElDorado subframe and grafting it to the frame of a 68 Chevy pickup (I think it was a 68, and I think it was an Eldo, but I definitely remember it was a 67-72 pickup, because I had just bought my first one, and I think it was an Eldo, but I definitely remember it was a FWD Cadillac). If my hazy memory serves me well, as it does from time to time, I think he just tied in the tie rods and appropriate components to the frame. Issues with body roll or anything like that, that anybody can think of? I'm pretty sure that's how the 4.9L Fiero swaps are done, too. I'm fairly certain I'm going to go with the rear engine idea. It's efficient (direct drive), it's cool, it's different, it seems reasonable to accomplish, and it is truly out of the box swapping goodness. I've always wanted a trunk in my pickup. Brad_man, thanks for bringing that up. It was an AWESOME thought. Now, to figure out which suspension to use and how to make it all work. Ideas?

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by Clyde65

maybe FWD? that would be very different.

I considered something like that, but it seems like the frame is a bit narrow for that. I would love a front wheel drive truck. Anybody have a solution or another project like this to solve the frame clearance issue?

[bighaas79]

Originally Posted by actconstruction

Not to question what you're saying, but are you sure it was a 4.9L? I've seen issues like the ones you're talking about on 4.1/4.5's but it's been my experience that by the time 92 (or was it 91?) came around and the big brother, 4.9 hit the line, these issues were resolved. Yes, the water pump is a pain in a front wheel drive, but I'm not building a front wheel drive, so problem solved. As far as the machine work goes, yes some shops won't work on them, but not because they're piles of crap. It's because the lifters assembly is used to pre-stress the engine before final machining. Therefore, if it were removed, it would require extremely skillful machine work to bring the engine back to stock specs. There's my 2 cents. Oh, and as far as the HP goes, I should've been clear about my intentions with this build. I have stupid powerful stuff around here. I'm looking more for ease and comfort of driving, while maintaining a decent amount of power when I just have to hit the freeway at 80 mph and get it done quick. The bellhousing is resolved and it wasn't as bad as I feared. It's a simple inch thick aluminum adapter plate. Somebody makes one already, I'll look it up again if anybody's really interested. I'm going to just make mine though, using specs from a gentleman from England, since $250.00's a little steep for a simple bellhousing adapter plate. Thank you everybody for your suggestions and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Please, keep it coming. Pictures on Saturday.

I have worked on all of em from the 4.1-4.9 and yes im sure it was the 4.9. This is purely my opinion from having worked on them. I do know there used to be guys that would transplant the whole cradle, trans, and engine into chevy citations, and i think i've seen em put into cavaliers as well. People do use them in conversions, and I'm not saying that what you want can't be done, and would probably do what you are looking for out of it, I just feel it would be a less than desireable motor to use. But again as I said before its your project, if it's what u want go for it, i hope it works for ya. I just hate to see you go to all the work of doing something like this, and have all your time,effort, and money get bamboozled cause the motor you are going to use gives you problems.

[actconstruction]

I tried to upload some pictures, but I got an error from the upload management applet that said a security token is missing and the operation couldn't be processed. I clicked the button to "notify administrator". Anybody had this happen to them? Did you solve the problem??? Help. I need my unique build pics up.

Oh, and if you missed it, I edited post #16. I'm aiming more towards a rear engine 4.9 using the subframe, trans and all from the Caddy. Tips, advice???? Oh, and I know it doesn't make sense. If it did, I wouldn't bother posting it up. That's why you'll see no write up on my fairly boring fuel injected Vortec swap for my 79 F100 Ranger Lariat Edition.

The issues I see with rear transverse setup is really crappy weight distribution, but I think this rock heavy truck should be okay. Then, there's controlling rear steer effect with body roll. How to graft the frame, nuts and bolts or welding? It's nuts and bolts in the stock setup. Need to measure shaft width and height of caddy subframe/ suspension, maybe wind up putting the truck frame "on top" of the Seville frame. And if i'm not mistaken, wouldn't this open up the possibility of swapping a 500 into it down the road from a FWD Eldo??? Oh, and matching the wheels up: I'd like to keep the ones I have. I like the idea of being able to drop the whole rear and swap it with other motors. That would be very cool. Okay, I think this is the part where someone should give some cautionary advice... Anything? Anybody? I'm about to dive in head first. This is the slowest time of year for my shop, so I'm good to go.

[usmcchevy]

If you go to the top of the page, click on gallery. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/gallery/
Upload your pics there and then take the link from them and paste it into your reply. The attach files function doesn't work for me if I upload more than one pic at a time. Gallery has worked every time.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by usmcchevy

If you go to the top of the page, click on gallery. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/gallery/
Upload your pics there and then take the link from them and paste it into your reply. The attach files function doesn't work for me if I upload more than one pic at a time. Gallery has worked every time.

I tried that and it crashed out, but you led me to the answer. I forgot I had a PhotoBucket account. So here goes.

Donor car: 1992 Cadillac SeVille with 20k original. Thanks, someone's Gammy! I can't find any pictures from before I started ripping it apart, but here's a couple I grabbed in my five minutes of sunlight.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/...n/DSCI0001.jpg
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/...n/DSCI0002.jpg
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/...n/DSCI0003.jpg

Here's the truck. I'll get some better ones up when I can>

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/...n/DSCI0009.jpg

And here's the trans (maybe). It's from a 99 Chevy 4X4.
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/...n/DSCI0011.jpg

[bighaas79]

If the trans is from a 99 4wd you would need it converted to a 2wd which it would probably easier to just get a 2wd to start with, as the output shaft would have to be swapped for a 2wd anyway. And i believe it was in 98 that gm went to a pwm pressure solenoid so whatever you are using for a controler make sure it is pwm or you will burn it up in no time. You could always go to a 700r4 with the tv cable. Would be cheaper and easier to make it work off the throttle body rather than use a controller. Just a thought.

[actconstruction]

Originally Posted by bighaas79

If the trans is from a 99 4wd you would need it converted to a 2wd which it would probably easier to just get a 2wd to start with, as the output shaft would have to be swapped for a 2wd anyway. And i believe it was in 98 that gm went to a pwm pressure solenoid so whatever you are using for a controler make sure it is pwm or you will burn it up in no time. You could always go to a 700r4 with the tv cable. Would be cheaper and easier to make it work off the throttle body rather than use a controller. Just a thought.

And a good thought it was. Fortunately, I am very familiar with these transmissions. Wish I was that familiar with Cadillacs. The PWM pressure solenoid started officially in 96, but appeared in some late 95's, indicated by the lettering "PWM" on the inside of the bellhousing. The ECM from the Blazer that it came out of will actually work as a standalone controller with a couple of inputs from the ECM being used for the engine. I've done this with other vehicles before, like a TBI 350 I built a few months ago. I'm just not sure about the signals from the Cadillac, and how many sensors I would have to add to get proper signal, since I haven't got that far yet. I'm in the process of eliminating everything from the car's wiring that isn't necessary, nice and slow, so nothing bad happens. I'm eliminating the BCM, SIRS, Climate Control, interior and exterior lighting circuits, all chassis computers, horn, seat belt sensors, seat controls, fuel pump, etc., etc. I prefer to keep my different systems bundled separately. When I'm done with that, I'll look at the signals the Caddy gives, since I can't even seem to get a decent wiring diagram or specs for it. It would probably be easier to just paddle shift it for an extra $65.00 in materials (I buy some parts assembled already, lazy, lazy). As far as the 4WD vs. 2WD issue, no problem. I have a short tail housing for it, adapted some time back from an old Chevy 3 speed, I think. The rear slip on yoke from a 91 SportVan w/ 4L80e fits perfectly. The universal joint for the yoke in turn matches the driveshaft I will be using. Or, the one I was going to use. I think I hit a hard turn on this project. Read on.

[actconstruction]

Guess what, guys. I have another Cadillac Seville all of a sudden. And what do you know? It's got a 4.9L/4T60E trans. This one's got higher miles, but it's okay at 80k. So, that got me thinking. I was going to put the motor in the back, but then the suspension becomes a mess. What about a front wheel drive truck? What about both? Here's the new direction of this quickly-changing project I've barely just started. I intend to place the entire subframe from Cadillac #1 in the rear of the truck, and the entire subframe from Cadillac #2 in the front of the truck. This will actually solve some problems (weight distribution, suspension differences/upgrade/lowering) and cause others. I'm going to run both motors basically independently, two floor shifters, two ignition cylinders, two of everything but the stuff there can only be one of, like the gas pedal. I need to figure out a way to allow them to measure each other's speed accurately, but I have the rest of it pretty much worked out. Maybe wheel speed sensors? Or I could make the part-time engine slaved to the full-time engine using tach output from distributor, maybe. Not really sure yet how I'm going to keep them perfectly synched. But the idea here is 200+HP with 23 MPG on the highway when I want it. At any time, I will be able to neutral start engine number 2 and double my horsepower in an all-wheel-drive setup. Anybody have any experience with this uncommon setup?

[Longhorn Man]

I'll leave my opinion of the engine in question out of this and say this sounds interesting.
However, I predict you won't hit 23MPG. I predict you'll get 15 at best.
Look at the aerodynamics of a caddy, and then look at the front of the truck. If just looking doesn't explain it enough, then get in a car doing 60 MPH, stick your hand out the window palm facing down, fingers extended out. This represents the caddy. It slices through the air.
Now turn your hand to where your palm is facing forward. This is the truck.
At speeds about 40 - 45 MPH, areo drag is the single most important equation in MPG goals. This is why the NASCAR guys stopped looking for more power and started adding air dams and rounded bodies (among other reasons too)
I have't seen gearing mentioned, gearing in a caddy will be way too low for a pickup. The areo thing at speed, and weight both come into play. Drop the RPMs too much and the motor will struggle and be under constant load, killing the MPG. Rev it too high, and obviously MPG blows out the tailpipe.
I suspect you will have less trouble getting your MPG numbers out of an Ls1 (and I'm not an Ls fan personally). I have personally oly seen 3 or 4 late model swaps in person, so it's not common like a ratty million mile sludge covered small block with pretty chrome valve covers.
Either way, it's your truck, and you have very high ambitions. YOu need to sit down and figure out exactly what you want. You've hardly pulled the tarp off the truck and your build plan has changed a few times. Not plans like "wat color should it be"... but talk of front wheel drive and 2 engines (nightmare... more for show than go...added dead weight). Figure out what you want, plan it out, and then attack it. If you change your mind after cutting the crap out of your truck, then you'll be left with a lot of welding anf 'unfabbing', or it'll be worth it's weight in scrap. With any of the things you have planned here, you don't want to half ass it, plan each step, and how it'll be a pain when you get 3 steps down the build.
Good luck on what ever you do... but don't expect 23 mpg anyway you slice it with that motor.