Preference: Bags vs. Hydros.....

[ChiefRocka]

I haven't decided what I want to do with the 'Chief'.....

Currently have other customers to deal with, so I have plenty of time to make a decision.

Most people these days are into laying frame/rocker, draggin, and just plain dropped....

I come from the late 80's early 90's when I worked for the old school San Jose outfit "LowridersHydraulics".....

There are pros and cons of both set-ups....

I like the new-school Bags...they are mega versatile and ride great.

But...they have there limitations....and that is there lift capability.

If you notice, most rides (that lay frame) aired up look like they are in a lowered state.

Thats the only thing that is a drawback to me. I come from the old style of "locking' the ass end way up in the air...and being able to drive...even at freeway speeds (being your driveline is in check!)

Even when using levers and compounding the lift ratio of a bag, it still wont lift like a hydro cylinder.

With 'Lifts" (hydros), you can lay frame/rocker/drag, and be able to lift the vehicle to WAY above stock...and if your not looking to "hop" inches, you can still acheive a decent ride. (softer spring rates)

I've seen rat-rod looking trucks done both ways, bags and hydros....

The rear suspension of our trucks (trailing arm equipped) are capable of lifting way up there, with minor mods. Check it out.....
-

-
What do you guys think ??

Are you concerned with a high lift or no ?? Just enough to clear bump and drive ??

I am just curious as to what are people preferences....

Thanks for your input !!!

Later....

[Shane]

no offense, but that's just plain silly looking.

[Mr79C10]

Also whats the cost difference between the 2?
I member when hydro. was the thing to use then along came airbags. You've seen the hydro. kits go away. Was talking with a few friends and would like to see the cost between the 2.

[RunninLo]

Ah.. the great old argument.....nothing will start a flame war faster....
I like both although mine are bagged. I have installed and seen both work well and will say this much.... it's ALL in the install.
For the record about four years ago I helped a high school kid who was interning with me for school credit build a 72 long bed that lay'd frame on air with 29" lift in the rear for that "locked-up" look. I gotta agree with shane it was sort of silly with no practical use but at the time it was trendy to do. I saw a pic of an s-10 with the butt so high in the air you could walk under the tailgate with out ducking. I would ask "why?" but they'd probably just use the best answer there is: " because I can"
Josh

[lowrollin70gmc]

My GMC is bagged because I like to look lowered while I roll and when I'm parked, which is what bags are good for. My Cobalt has 5-6" of clearance under it, and so does my pickup when aired up, so I clear anything on the road. When I redo the suspension next spring break, I plan to lay frame and ride at my current aired out height (pic to left).

Both can be good and probably comparably in price, but personally I use air, as it's what I know about.

[ChiefRocka]

Originally Posted by Shane

no offense, but that's just plain silly looking.

That cool man...I just wanted opinions !!!

Originally Posted by Mr79C10

Also whats the cost difference between the 2?
I member when hydro. was the thing to use then along came airbags. You've seen the hydro. kits go away. Was talking with a few friends and would like to see the cost between the 2.

Actually depending on what you want to do...If you just want to layout, and no play time then bags would be more cost effective. Although, costs could be pretty close...When you start running multiple expensive hiflow 3/4" valves per bag , 600 psi rated bags, tons of air, refilling nitro bottles , etc. etc. Again I am talking HI-SPEED air-bags...hopping off the ground...This is what some people want.

The hydro thing is still in full force...it all depends on what your into. I like it all I attend GoodGuys and LowRider shows, and pretty much see/like it all.

Originally Posted by RunninLo

Ah.. the great old argument.....nothing will start a flame war faster....
I like both although mine are bagged. I have installed and seen both work well and will say this much.... it's ALL in the install.
For the record about four years ago I helped a high school kid who was interning with me for school credit build a 72 long bed that lay'd frame on air with 29" lift in the rear for that "locked-up" look. I gotta agree with shane it was sort of silly with no practical use but at the time it was trendy to do. I saw a pic of an s-10 with the butt so high in the air you could walk under the tailgate with out ducking. I would ask "why?" but they'd probably just use the best answer there is: " because I can"
Josh

That it totally cool...although 29" from a dead lay is ok...but not crazy. You are correct in saying it is/was the trendy thing to do. I guess I was just raised around the "my s#it gets up higher than yours!!" crowd. Well, I know it is kind of silly, but like I said...I just wanted to get the opinions of you guys here.

I enjoy this site very much, this is the only forum that I have found to be no "haters". Everyone has compliments to say or info to give. Thats cool...

Now the 'lowrider' forum thats a different story !!
-
-

Originally Posted by lowrollin70gmc

My GMC is bagged because I like to look lowered while I roll and when I'm parked, which is what bags are good for. My Cobalt has 5-6" of clearance under it, and so does my pickup when aired up, so I clear anything on the road. When I redo the suspension next spring break, I plan to lay frame and ride at my current aired out height (pic to left).

Both can be good and probably comparably in price, but personally I use air, as it's what I know about.

-
Thats gonna be sweet. I like that rolling low look as well. I just want more travel from the lowered position on up.

Another point also, people always mention the weight of the extra batterys.

Again, if you just want to go up and down,(like most of the bag croud) then a basic hydro set-up could be run off of the vehicles battery...just as the airide comp can...much more lift. Air-ride needs extra tanks, most people run multiple comps....just for that little bit more 'playtime'. One good thing about the 'juice', is you have instant lift...no wait time. To some people, theres nothing like the sound of an old school pump spool'n up......

Again, they both have theiir ups and downs, and personal preference.

I am not try to knock either system, just trying to see where people stand, and what their opinions were.

The suspension of my truck will built for advertisement purposes...for my shop...so it will probably be bagged, or mabey a combo of both...we will see...


Thanks fellas for your inputs ...have a good day !!!

[Shane]

Originally Posted by ChiefRocka

.. The suspension of my truck will built for advertisement purposes...for my shop...so it will probably be bagged, or mabey a combo of both...we will see...

We need pics bro! Keep us up to speed on the progress!

[hotrodhomi]

Its a lot easier to hide the bagged set up on your truck. I love the sound of juice, but I would stick to putting it into the trunk of a car. I have a '66 Impala and have wanted to juice since I got it, 9 years ago, but recently I've been thinking about bags. Better ride and less of a mess + the up keep of bags is minimal compared to charging the batteries and trying to keep them clean. I'm surprised that people arnt laughing at you for thinking about juice, because thats the response I always get, not that I care what they think anyway. Air has more positive things going for it, but that being said if you want to juice it. DO IT.

[Bagged Nissan]

The great debate of juice or air.

Air does have lift restrictions, but so do hydraulics. An airbag like a Slam Specialties bag that can take a ton of abuse, can be used in different positions to get great lift from it. With dros, you cant run anything bigger then a 10" cylinder in a lever setup, without a chance of bending a cylinder b/c of force. The bigger the cylinder, the less force it can take. So if you setup that 10" cylinder in a 2:1 ratio with a powerball on the bottom, you can get 20" of lift.

An air bag that is as well built as a Slam bag, you can stick in 3:1 ratios. You cant with a firestone or airlift bag, b/c they will simply pull apart. Also with a bag being in tighter ratios, it takes more psi to lock it out, but it takes less to get to ride height. If that makes sense. Here is an example. My Nissan has RE7 slams in the rear in a 2.5:1 ratio. Without shocks, 300psi of nitro (not sure what was actually in the bag, but i know not more then 100-120), the back of my nissan would get 15" of lift with shocks. without, it looked like a grasshopper. Here is a picture of it with shocks, fully extended. (i am losing in the 5" inches of lift range due to it being setup for 22's and i only have my 17's on it)




Dros can ride great and be completely self maintained, but you will have quite a bit of money into it. You need good accumulators, good coils, a street charger (or 2, depending on the amount of batteries you run), shocks. The thing about hydraulics is they ride the same on the ground as it will 20" in the air. An air bag's spring rate changes with the PSI of air in the bag. The bigger the bag, the less air it takes to get to a certain ride, combined with the right shock, will provide a lot better ride then a smaller bag.

It doesnt cost nearly as much as I think you think it does to hop on bags. My 91 s10 hops, yeah, its only 6" but i was running 3/8 valves, 1/2 line and only 200psi. I also dont build to hop. The nissan running the same setup, but with nitro set at 350, would hop all over the damn place. I could of went to bigger valves, or dual fill valves, but that isnt what I want in my truck.

Get some 1/2 valves, 5/8 line, a bottle of nitro gen, you'll be hopping nicely. If you want to air dance something, you'll need to set it up right. matt's gauge s10 that dances on air has like 600psi or something crazy.. it does okay. there is a black mazda that kool laid of <st> built that bunny hops a good 4 feet on 450psi.

With air ride you do have to have a big tank to play, or multiples. I have a 12 gal with an engine driven, which will fill that 12 gallon in seconds. I have a nitro bottle when I want to play. The problem with a lot of people that have air, they get the smallest system, just so they can have air on their truck. You see a lot of 5 gallons with a single viair 450. not bag for someone who never plays, but that a 5 gallon at 150psi will barely get an s10 off the ground enough to drive. If you had a 5 gallon with dual 380's or dual 480's.. you'd see 200psi and the fill times are a lot quicker. Hell just investing some time and money into making a store bought york work (i'm not a fan of the air lift york setups, seems since they're built by another company, they just fall apart, my oreilys bought reman'ed ford compressor has NO problems), they can have great psi, and fill time is remarkable.

But anyone who installs or has air ride knows, when you want to play, go pay 11.50 to fill a nitrogen bottle and get to playing. You have 2500 in the bottle and whatever your regulator will let you go to play with. I have a Harris 1000psi regulator. Its never been over 350 though.

You mentioned possibly doing the combo of both. If I could talk my fiance into letting me do her car, I have a hybrid that I am wanting to try out. It takes some space, which is why I dont wanna use it on my nissan (it will take up a lot of the bed). but you mount an airbag of your preference on the end of a hydro cylinder, preferably say 10" cylinder, you do this twice for the front.. so you have 2 bags and 2 cylinders remotely mounted in your bed.. then you mount 2 say 10" cylinders in the front where they need to go. You fill the line and the cylinder in the bed full with fluid. It is a closed system, it needs no pumps, nothing. You get just an air setup. When you inflate the bag, it will push the cylinder in, pushing the fluid into the cylinder in the front, raising the car/truck. You get the lift of hydraulics, the ride of an airbag with a shock mounted somewhere and you get the cleanliness of air.

To get the lift you want in your picture with air, I would try this to see what you come up with.

Get an RE8 slam bag. Mount it as close to the pivoting point as you can. See where you're at there with no shocks. Its going to take some psi to get it in the air, b/c the bag will start to bend. So throw a nitro tank on there with a regulator and test and try.

if you have 45" long bars, if you mount it 5" in from the center of the front pivot, that is 8:1. stroke of an re8 is 9". Since the bag wont stay straight, you wont get the 72" of lift that theory says you should have. With the bowing, you'll get less. But worth a shot since its just to promote. Dont know about driving on it.

one more thing before I end this long rambling non-sense. The guys that just look lowered when they're fully locked out, are usually only running over axle setups, or they're running 22's or 24's on their minis. Its hard to untuck a 29" tall tire and drive it daily.. the ass will sway in the wing regardless your setup.

[ChiefRocka]

Originally Posted by Shane

We need pics bro! Keep us up to speed on the progress!

-
As always...I always provide progress pics...Keep in mind this wont be for a while, considering the next project is the LS7 Z06 powered 69 Stingray
-

Originally Posted by hotrodhomi

Its a lot easier to hide the bagged set up on your truck. I love the sound of juice, but I would stick to putting it into the trunk of a car. I have a '66 Impala and have wanted to juice since I got it, 9 years ago, but recently I've been thinking about bags. Better ride and less of a mess + the up keep of bags is minimal compared to charging the batteries and trying to keep them clean. I'm surprised that people arnt laughing at you for thinking about juice, because thats the response I always get, not that I care what they think anyway. Air has more positive things going for it, but that being said if you want to juice it. DO IT.

If done and installed correctly, there should be any kind of leak, whether air or juice.

Again, I just want to get everyones opinions....Thanks !!!

[ChiefRocka]

Originally Posted by Bagged Nissan

The great debate of juice or air.

Air does have lift restrictions, but so do hydraulics. An airbag like a Slam Specialties bag that can take a ton of abuse, can be used in different positions to get great lift from it. With dros, you cant run anything bigger then a 10" cylinder in a lever setup, without a chance of bending a cylinder b/c of force. The bigger the cylinder, the less force it can take. So if you setup that 10" cylinder in a 2:1 ratio with a powerball on the bottom, you can get 20" of lift.

An air bag that is as well built as a Slam bag, you can stick in 3:1 ratios. You cant with a firestone or airlift bag, b/c they will simply pull apart. Also with a bag being in tighter ratios, it takes more psi to lock it out, but it takes less to get to ride height. If that makes sense. Here is an example. My Nissan has RE7 slams in the rear in a 2.5:1 ratio. Without shocks, 300psi of nitro (not sure what was actually in the bag, but i know not more then 100-120), the back of my nissan would get 15" of lift with shocks. without, it looked like a grasshopper. Here is a picture of it with shocks, fully extended. (i am losing in the 5" inches of lift range due to it being setup for 22's and i only have my 17's on it)




Dros can ride great and be completely self maintained, but you will have quite a bit of money into it. You need good accumulators, good coils, a street charger (or 2, depending on the amount of batteries you run), shocks. The thing about hydraulics is they ride the same on the ground as it will 20" in the air. An air bag's spring rate changes with the PSI of air in the bag. The bigger the bag, the less air it takes to get to a certain ride, combined with the right shock, will provide a lot better ride then a smaller bag.

It doesnt cost nearly as much as I think you think it does to hop on bags. My 91 s10 hops, yeah, its only 6" but i was running 3/8 valves, 1/2 line and only 200psi. I also dont build to hop. The nissan running the same setup, but with nitro set at 350, would hop all over the damn place. I could of went to bigger valves, or dual fill valves, but that isnt what I want in my truck.

Get some 1/2 valves, 5/8 line, a bottle of nitro gen, you'll be hopping nicely. If you want to air dance something, you'll need to set it up right. matt's gauge s10 that dances on air has like 600psi or something crazy.. it does okay. there is a black mazda that kool laid of <st> built that bunny hops a good 4 feet on 450psi.

With air ride you do have to have a big tank to play, or multiples. I have a 12 gal with an engine driven, which will fill that 12 gallon in seconds. I have a nitro bottle when I want to play. The problem with a lot of people that have air, they get the smallest system, just so they can have air on their truck. You see a lot of 5 gallons with a single viair 450. not bag for someone who never plays, but that a 5 gallon at 150psi will barely get an s10 off the ground enough to drive. If you had a 5 gallon with dual 380's or dual 480's.. you'd see 200psi and the fill times are a lot quicker. Hell just investing some time and money into making a store bought york work (i'm not a fan of the air lift york setups, seems since they're built by another company, they just fall apart, my oreilys bought reman'ed ford compressor has NO problems), they can have great psi, and fill time is remarkable.

But anyone who installs or has air ride knows, when you want to play, go pay 11.50 to fill a nitrogen bottle and get to playing. You have 2500 in the bottle and whatever your regulator will let you go to play with. I have a Harris 1000psi regulator. Its never been over 350 though.

You mentioned possibly doing the combo of both. If I could talk my fiance into letting me do her car, I have a hybrid that I am wanting to try out. It takes some space, which is why I dont wanna use it on my nissan (it will take up a lot of the bed). but you mount an airbag of your preference on the end of a hydro cylinder, preferably say 10" cylinder, you do this twice for the front.. so you have 2 bags and 2 cylinders remotely mounted in your bed.. then you mount 2 say 10" cylinders in the front where they need to go. You fill the line and the cylinder in the bed full with fluid. It is a closed system, it needs no pumps, nothing. You get just an air setup. When you inflate the bag, it will push the cylinder in, pushing the fluid into the cylinder in the front, raising the car/truck. You get the lift of hydraulics, the ride of an airbag with a shock mounted somewhere and you get the cleanliness of air.

To get the lift you want in your picture with air, I would try this to see what you come up with.

Get an RE8 slam bag. Mount it as close to the pivoting point as you can. See where you're at there with no shocks. Its going to take some psi to get it in the air, b/c the bag will start to bend. So throw a nitro tank on there with a regulator and test and try.

if you have 45" long bars, if you mount it 5" in from the center of the front pivot, that is 8:1. stroke of an re8 is 9". Since the bag wont stay straight, you wont get the 72" of lift that theory says you should have. With the bowing, you'll get less. But worth a shot since its just to promote. Dont know about driving on it.

one more thing before I end this long rambling non-sense. The guys that just look lowered when they're fully locked out, are usually only running over axle setups, or they're running 22's or 24's on their minis. Its hard to untuck a 29" tall tire and drive it daily.. the ass will sway in the wing regardless your setup.

I just noticed my last post and your post were posted at the same time, so I missed it.

I like your responce, you seem to know whats going on...however....

First this was just a "preference" question, but thanks for some insite.

On your not regarding the max cylinder usage...I have used 10's, 12's, 14's, and customer made 16's in the past.

I have never had a problem bending a shaft...they are pretty strong.

We used to run large cylinders in the rear of 58-64 Impalas with no problem...sure there wasn't much of a ratio, but the cylinder does push and the trailing arm, which at that height, the arm is almost at a 90 with the payment. Major stress there. Keep in mind, that there would be more weight in the trunk, than there was under the hood !!

I remember one time this guy had a crappy 64, his rear cylinders were soooo bad, when it 'locked' the cylinder was sideways, hella worn out, but still compresses back in....

Keep in mind that would also be weight in the trunk, than there was under the hood !!

I understand all about the ratios, thanks...

Nice Nissan BTW, Thats my favorite bodystyle of NIssan !!!!

Now as far as costs (and weight for that matter), it all depends on what you want to do !!!

Air runs on 1 battery, but so can juice !!!

Back in the mid 80's...we (partner) were the ORIGINATORs of the "1 pump/8dump" hydro set-up....This set was ultra trick, and capable of utilizing 1 battery (up to 4), and was super efficient.

Granted, it wasn't the fastest system around, but it perfect for the then "civic/import' crowd.

We juiced so many imports that way it was scarry...It worked really especially in the Hondas. It was funny to see the first Flat backed civic Hatch juiced (new then)

His first import was a Diesel Rabbit...It tripped everyone out and a San JOse show back in the day, when he came in 3-wheel'n the back.

Anyway.....

The cost for a basic air system with 8 small valves, and a basic juice sytem is relativley the same (comparison made witrh 1 bat)

Now you want to fly ?? well then the costs and weight on both systems go up.

There can be a ride difference, and that is in the springs (air-spring vs. coil spring)

You are right, a juice ride rides the same up or down because the hydros are 'pushing' on a set of coils (typical coil sprung car).

If the customer is not concerned with "inches" then a set of soft to medium spring rated coils (perportioned to vehicle weight) and a set of external shock mounts, will yield a great ride.

If you building a Hopper, then, well you better we wearing a seat-belt !!!!

With bags, you can have both worlds, low psi big bag = a caddy smooth ride

Raise the bar to 600 psi and your flying with the same bags.....

I hear ya man....

I know the SLAMs are the s#it, thats all I recommend...but don't think that I would run them that far back on my trailing arms...we will see.

I justed want to know where everyone stood.

I have just noticed, that more and more people are wanting/trying to get more lift out there bags..with levers, levers, and more levers.

Tucking big wheels is hella sick, but rolling in super high, then laying back down on there shaved rocker would be awesome too, in my opinon !!!


I have seen Hondas with the hydro/bags set-ups before...they work great.

That might be an idea....We will see.....

Again, thanks to all on letting me know where they stand as far as lifting heights go....

Have a great day !!!

[Bagged Nissan]

You're right, that is a lot of stress with that trailing arm setup. I was just getting at this. If you were to measure up the trailing arm and look where the spring pocket is, i'd say that is what.. 1.5:1 maybe, maybe less. I was looking more at the 2:1 and 3:1 ratios guys are doing. 2:1 as you know will cut the cylinder and springs max capacity to half, 3:1 cuts it down even more. That is where I have heard of guys having problems their cylinders.

You were right that dros wont be messy, but seals go bad, you cant stop that. That's the messy downside if you're leak free.

Yeah, I was just trying to play devils advocate and list my thoughts on both instead of standing here screaming bags or dros were better then the other.

My Nissan will tuck big wheels and probably never be drove above the rear wheels, but it will have the ability to, within the bags limits and my shock limits.

Thanks for the compliments on my Nissan. Those pics were 3/4 way through the backhalf a few months ago, its now cut off, trucks stripped.. its getting a mandral bent back half and stockfloored this winter.

good luck on your frame you got up there. it seems anymore building a sick ass frame gets more attention then the complete truck.

[Frizzle Fry]

I see no need to ever go higher than necessary to clear obstacles. I ride as low a I can

[ChiefRocka]

I guess it must be an "intown" thing...or mabey just a "lowrider" thing to be able to see the gas tank of a G-body at about your rearview height !

Thanks guys !!!


Lets keep the info flow'n, and help'n each other out....


Frizzle I forgot to get the shock numbers for you.....I get you them soon.

[Mr79C10]

Another question?
Whats the speed or the cycle of Air VS Hydro. on lifting time?

I don't have either set up, But I would think it the price is about the same I'm thinking that hydro would be a pain. You have more battery's to worry about (charging) And then the hydro fluid.
Just my

[Bagged Nissan]

Originally Posted by Mr79C10

Another question?
Whats the speed or the cycle of Air VS Hydro. on lifting time?

I don't have either set up, But I would think it the price is about the same I'm thinking that hydro would be a pain. You have more battery's to worry about (charging) And then the hydro fluid.
Just my

the price that is the same for dros and air is a 1 battery setup. that's not very fast at all. air you can change the speed by having more air.

i'm not sure the fill time like you say, but 12 gallon tank, 200psi, 3/8 valves, 1/2 line will lock and (and hop about half a foot) my s10 with a 4.3.. so you can imagine from the ground to off the ground in the blink of an eye. it can go faster with more air.. or slower if you regulate it down to 150.

keep in mind, my valve size and line size, is nothing in the 'fast' crowd. they use 1/2" valves (for the most part, some use 3/4" or 1" valves) and 5/8" and up line sizes.. thing about this is, there is not adjustability. you start playing with the fact that unless you have super worn switches, you'll either be all the way up, or on the ground. that's the bad part about speed. I prefer to roll and adjust without worries.

[XXL]

Originally Posted by ChiefRocka

But...they have there limitations....and that is there lift capability.

I believe I can get all the lift I want from my bagged setup and this device...